The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

herk

UD,
No, you just condemned your own ignorance of the Scriptures. Stephen was no more praying than Adam was when he spoke to God in Eden or when the Jews spoke to angels. The apostle John was not praying when he said to an angel in heaven, "My lord, you know." (Revelation 7:14) Jesus gave specific instructions on how to pray. He said we should pray to the Father, not to him or to the Holy Spirit. Just as the cartoon emphasizes, you are going beyond the Scriptures and teaching falsely. You are just like the scribes and Pharisees who went beyond what was written in an effort to show themselves as more righteous than the common people. Just as Jesus condemned them, he condemns you. We need have no doubt about that, since all who are disobedient to Christ will have to answer for their self-righteousness.
herk
UnDisfellowshipped

Herk said:
No, you just condemned your own ignorance of the Scriptures. Stephen was no more praying than Adam was when he spoke to God in Eden or when the Jews spoke to angels.
PROVE IT WITH SCRIPTURE!
Did the Jews call on the name of angels and then pray to them? PROVE IT!
The apostle John was not praying when he said to an angel in heaven, "My lord, you know." (Revelation 7:14)
He was in the direct presence of the angel. Did John "call on the Lord" and then talk to the angel?
Show me one example in the Scriptures of someone asking anyone other than God to "receive my spirit" or to "forgive their sins".
Why in the world would Stephen, who was full of the Holy Spirit, who just saw a vision of THE FATHER and the Son then choose to "talk" to Jesus instead of the Almighty Father?
Your reply was a biased piece of work alright.
If that SAME VERSE had said "They went on stoning Stephen as he called on the Lord and said, "Father, receive my spirit!" -- Then you would have said Stephen was PRAYING not "speaking".
You also CONDEMNED the Apostle Paul, because he wrote:
2nd Corinthians 12:8: Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.
2nd Corinthians 12:9: And He has said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is perfected in weakness." Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.
2nd Corinthians 12:10: Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ's sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
What does "implored" mean?
1: to call upon in supplication : BESEECH
2: to call or pray for earnestly : ENTREAT
What does "Pray" mean?
1: ENTREAT, IMPLORE often used as a function word in introducing a question, request, or plea 2: to get or bring by praying
intransitive senses
1: to make a request in a humble manner
2: to address God or a god with adoration, confession, supplication, or thanksgiving
1st Timothy 1:12: I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service
How could Paul "thank Christ Jesus" unless he prayed to Him?
I am finished discussing anything with you Herk.
Your posts are filled with nothing but HATE and un-Christian rudeness, and now LIES and DECEPTION.
You, and I, and everyone else will stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, and HE will decide where we all end up.
May God have mercy on your soul Herk (or do you prefer fjtoth?).
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 8 December 2002 3:18:22
DakotaRed

Why did the Disciple Stephen when he was being stoned to death choose NOT to pray to the ONLY TRUE GOD?

The context of Acts 7:59 shows me that Stephen was given a miraculous vision. In this vision (verse 55,56), he sees not only God, but Jesus at God's right hand. Stephen, who was about to be stoned, was filled with holy spirit, and was able to see the reality of the situation, that he was about to be put to death for his being a follower of Jesus. Stephen, during this vision, makes an appeal, or request of Jesus, who he was seeing in this vision, to receive his spirit.

The Greek word translated "called upon" or "prayer," in some translations, is "epikaloumenon." It's literal meaning is to "appeal, invoke, aid, request, call, or call on." It is used else where in the Bible by Paul for instance at Acts 25:11 where he "appeals" to Caesar. Certainly, Caesar was not God, nor did Paul "pray" to Caesar! And again at Acts 26:32. Also at Acts 10:18, at another form of the same word (epikaleo) is used with reference to the one "called" (epikaleo) Peter. So, we can see that this word "epikaloumenon" hardly indicates that Stephen was offering a "prayer," or "worshipful address" to Jesus.

We can see this by Matthew 6:9 where Jesus tells us to "pray" to the Father....The Greek word here translated "pray" is "proseukhmai." This word means to "pray, offer worshipful address." It is NOT the same word as used in Acts 7:59. Thus we can see that Stephen, who was about to die, was given a vision. There he saw Jesus, at the right hand of his Father in heaven. Then, at the moment right before his death, he requested Jesus to receive his spirit, as well as offer petition to Jehovah, not to hold this sin against them.
And again I ask, why does Jesus' claim that another is the only true God at John 17:3 go unanswered and get ignored? Do others place so little merit in Jesus' words? Should not his words carry more weight than any of the disciples?
If Jesus himself believes another to be the only true God, who can actually follow Jesus and still claim he is the one God mentioned in the Bible?
Lew W
UnDisfellowshipped

Lew (DakotaRed),
You said:
Then, at the moment right before his death, he requested Jesus to receive his spirit, as well as offer petition to Jehovah, not to hold this sin against them.
Not true, no where in those Verses does it mention Stephen petitioning Jehovah, unless you are reading the Watchtower's "Bible".
Every other Translation out there says "Lord", and it is obvious to me that it is the same Lord who Stephen prayed to in the previous Verse.
Regardless of the word used, it is obvious that Stephen called out to JESUS instead of the Father in his last moments.
The Apostle Paul also prayed to Jesus at least 4 times (I am sure there were many more times).
In the Bible, who is the One who is said to "receive our spirits"?
Psalm 31:5: Into Your hand I commend my spirit. You redeem me, Yahweh, God of truth.
Luke 23:46: Jesus, crying with a loud voice, said, "Father, into Your hands I commit My spirit!" Having said this, he breathed his last.
I bet most unitarians would have no problem saying that Jesus was praying in Luke 23:46 and I bet the same for this next Verse:
Luke 23:34: Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they don't know what they are doing." Dividing His garments among them, they cast lots.
Strong's Dictionary defines the Greek word for "Call upon" in Acts 7:59 as the following:
"to invoke (for aid, worship, testimony, decision, etc.): - appeal (unto), call (on, upon)"
The same Greek word is used in the following Verse:
1st Peter 1:17: If you call on Him as Father, who without respect of persons judges according to each man's work, pass the time of your living as strangers here in reverent fear:
Is "calling on the Father" not prayer in that Verse? Then what is it?
What about these Verse, is this not Prayer? Then what is it?
Joel 2:32: It will happen that whoever will call on the Name of Yahweh shall be saved; For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there will be those who escape, As Yahweh has said, And among the remnant, those whom Yahweh calls.
Acts 2:21: It will be, that whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved.'
Acts 22:16: Now why do you wait? Arise, be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the Name of the Lord.'
Romans 10:12: For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich to all who call on Him. (Is this Verse speaking about the Father or the Son?)
Romans 10:13: For, "Whoever will call on the Name of the Lord will be saved."
1st Corinthians 1:2: to the assembly of God which is at Corinth; those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all who call on the Name of our Lord Jesus Christ in every place, both theirs and ours
2nd Timothy 2:22: Flee from youthful lusts; but pursue righteousness, faith, love, and peace with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.
If those are not prayers, what are they?
I will post more soon.
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 8 December 2002 6:14:10
Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 8 December 2002 6:18:17
UnDisfellowshipped

Also, here is another very interesting Scripture about a prayer:
The Apostle Paul is praying to The Lord to direct Christians to God and to Christ:
2nd Thessalonians 3:5: May the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patience of Christ.
Who is The Lord in that Verse who is directing people to God and Christ?
If "The Lord" in that Verse is the Father, why doesn't it read this way:
May the Lord direct your hearts into His love, and into the patience of Christ.
Or, if "The Lord" in that Verse is the Son, why doesn't it read this way:
May the Lord direct your hearts into His patience, and into the love of God.
The only conclusion I have come up with is that "The Lord" in that Verse is the Holy Spirit!
herk
LittleToe

Herk:
Your headship cartoon denigrates women - I find it more offensive than your direct attacks at Trinitarians. Though there is headship, man and women are equal (complimentary). Likewise with God (1 Cor.11:3). Interestingly enough, those who would go to heaven are co-rulers and equal with Christ, yet Christ is their head.
Rather than ask how we came to this understanding, of the Trinity, I see that you have launched into a tirade (by the way, loved the maths lesson - more evidence of trying to put God in a box). You are demonstrating an attitude of ignorance, rather than love. It is God, Himself, who gives knowledge and understanding (Prov.2:6).
How do you explain Matt.28:19; Rom.8:9,14-17; 2Cor.13:14; 1Pet.1:2; Jude 1:20-25?
Lew:
Hiya, how are you doing? Long time no hear.
On John 17:3, since no-one seems to be taking up the gauntlet:
As well as the context, which show's Jesus talking of himself in the third person, we find the title "true" (alethinos) being applied (we also find this in 1John 5:20). Jesus prayer is from a state of humiliation, as also identied in Phil.2:8.
There's a strong tie between John 17 and Phil.2, which shows Christ pre and post human existance and glory.
This IMHO, is where Unitarians come unstuck, because they find it hard to differentiate between Christs state of glory and his state of humiliation.
herk
LittleToe

Herk:
The really sad thing is that the caption for each of those cartoons could just as easily contain references to a whole host of beliefs, including Unitarian.
You certainly have a gift, it's a shame to see you abuse it, as you dodge the issues and attack people who love God, Christ, and the bible.

The Trinity

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