The Trinity

by meadow77 740 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • herk
    herk

    LittleToe,

    To deny that the Pharisees had a theology problem is to throw out two thirds of what's written in the four Gospels. Jesus wrangled with them almost every day for over three years, not principally about their lack of love, but about their misinterpretation of the Scriptures. They trusted in their own teachings and had abandoned God's teachings. That was the underlying reason why they lacked love.

    The same is true today. In over 60 years I have never met a Trinitarian who is such due to a sincere love of the Bible. All of them believe it because of what men have said, not due to discovering it themselves. The doctrine has been carefully developed and phrased over centuries of time. It is stated in a particular way and requires special terminology for its explanation - terminology that is not found in the Bible. Those who argue for it make a point of giving original Hebrew and Greek terms a special meaning that often conflicts with what many translators and other scholars have said. There is no way that the average reader, left to himself, would discover a doctrine so well hidden in the Scriptures if, indeed, it was actually there.

    Like many Trinitarians, you claim that people who believed in the Trinity were persecuted for that belief. But where is the evidence for such a bold claim? History is silent. On the other hand, millions of Jews, Muslims and non-Trinitarian Christians were hounded to death by both Catholic and Protestant Trinitarians. Here history is so loud that it is deafening with reports about the Inquisition and Dark Ages, the expulsion of non-Trinitarians from Spain and other lands in the 15th century, their expulsion from Poland in the 16th century, their burnings at the stake in Protestant England even as late as the 17th century, etc.

    Yes, I do doubt your sincerity and love. If you were genuinely fair, you would have made an equal issue of all the rantings and ravings of the Trinitarians in this thread. The thread even got its start by someone who blazed away with both barrels loaded as if out to kill.

    Your objection to my cartoons is additional evidence of your bias. All you can come up with is that cartoon editorials have been misused and abused, but you can't point to a single one of mine that fits that category. I haven't lied or deliberately distorted anything. It is sheer pettiness to say the Devil doesn't have horns and carry a pitch-fork. A cartoon is only a cartoon, and generally people know what's meant by such an illustration. The same can be said about meeting Peter at heaven's gate or about seeing two members of the Trinity hiding behind clouds. The purpose of the cartoon is to convey a message. If that message is truthful, it will not be offensive except to people it exposes or those who have an overly-sensitive concept of what's right and wrong.

    I imagine you will continue to find objections to anything I say. You have that right. But I urge you to try being a bit more fair in your criticisms. Try to see that where there is smoke there is fire and that there can be and often are abuses involving name-calling and offensiveness on both sides of this issue of the Trinity.

    Herk

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    ROFLMAO

    Before you hurl accusations, try reading some of my posts...

    After 60 years, you just met your first. The chances are that you have met others, but you perhaps never gave them the benefit of the doubt. I came up with the Trinity doctrine after reading the bible, since beforehand I was a diehard JW.

    I have met Unitarians, Trinitarians, Modalists, Dualists, etc. aplenty. To be frank, I would never doubt their love for the bible, nor God. I believe you do them an injustice, with your comments.

    You think me unfair because I found your cartoons offensive, which is my right. Why should I take your side on that arguement. My bias is simply that I find them excessive and offensive.

    Feel free to comment as you like. I don't object to that, since that is your right. My call was simply for an exhibition of love, rather than demonstrating all the worst qualities of religionists. God is love, remember.

    In Christian love,

    LT

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    LittleToe said:

    I came up with the Trinity doctrine after reading the bible, since beforehand I was a diehard JW.

    That is exactly the same with me.

    I was taught for 18+ years that the Trinity is Pagan and Satanic and that I would be destroyed if I believed it.

    When I actually started reading the Scriptures on my own (using an actual Bible Translation), I started seeing how the Bible, all throughout the New Testament, and even in the Old Testament, proclaimed Jesus as God.

    It was very, very hard at first to believe that, after being taught that I would be destroyed for it?

    After months of reading the Scriptures, I came to the conclusion that Jesus is most certainly God Almighty, along with the Father and the Spirit!

    I can't explain how much more love I have felt for everyone since I started praying to Jesus and the Father everyday.

    Edited by - UnDisfellowshipped on 7 December 2002 18:0:30

  • UnDisfellowshipped
    UnDisfellowshipped

    Here is a cartoon Herk posted:

    Translation: Trinitarians are going to Hell!

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    John 1:1 was validated by A. T. Robertson (one of the top five Greek translators in the world at the time).
    He said "As already explained, the article is not essential to speech....So in John 1:1...the subject is perfectly clear." (A Grammar of the Greek New Testament, 767)
    Unless you going to start aguing with actuall reknown Greek scholars, then you must admit that John 1:1 is a correct translation.
    Therefore, the Deity of Christ is affirmed. The Word was God.
    Since this is the correct translation, to say that the Word was not God is just plain denial.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, the sheer hilarity of the cartoon you drew up caused my side to split. I'm just now getting over it.
    Things wrong with your cartoon:
    1. My computer (like most made in the last 5 years) is a tower.
    2. My hair isn't yellow
    3. I don't wear glasses
    4. I don't understand the part with "prove trinity is true with his computer." What does my computer have to do with anything?
    5. My hair isn't THAT bad, unless this is a rendering of me in the morning.
    6. What are those little flat yellow things floating around in my monitor?
    7. My computer has a DVD drive, all I see is a A drive and a CD drive.
    8. Why am I staring at the side of my computer?

    I do happen to be wearing a blue shirt at the moment, so you got one thing right!

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Herk, let me ask you this, what does the term "Godhead" mean?

    1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." Trinity not found in the Bible eh?

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Dakota, Herk:
    1 John 4:15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (KJV)

    God dwells in the person who confesses that Jesus is the Son of God.

    John 14:16 "And I [Jesus] will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"

    This comforter is the Holy Spirit, the very Spirit of God. John 14:26 "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."
    Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
    Exodus 31:3 "And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,"
    Numbers 24:2 "And Balaam lifted up his eyes, and he saw Israel abiding in his tents according to their tribes; and the spirit of God came upon him."
    Job 33:4 "The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life."

    The Spirit of God is ONE with God. It's quite obvious. We should be in agreement that the Holy Spirit is one with God.

    So, if the Comforter dwells in you, so does God, right?

    John 14:9-17 "And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you."

    In this passage Jesus will bid the Holy Spirit will dwell in them. So, in fact, God will dwell in them, for God and Holy Spirit are one.

    18-20: "I will not leave you comfortless: I WILL COME TO YOU. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I IN YOU."

    So now Jesus identifies Himself with the Holy Spirit. He says the Holy Spirit dwell in you, then He says "I will come to you", and "IN you."

    So, just by this passage, we see that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are truly one.
    If Jesus is one with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is one with the Father. Jesus says that He and His Father are ONE. The Father dwells in Him and He in the Father.

    11 "Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake."

    John 14:8,9 Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us. Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

    Jesus truley identifies Himself as ONE with the Father. He says if you have SEEN ME, YOU HAVE SEEN THE FATHER.

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    1 John 4:15. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God. (KJV)
    Also, if God dwells in you when you become saved, and Jesus says He will dwell in you, then they must be one. I don't think both dwell in you at the same time. (or switch places every once in a while)

  • SwedishChef
    SwedishChef

    Undis,
    "I started praying to Jesus and the Father everyday."

    Do you pray to Jesus and then pray to the Father?

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