I cant believe this Trinity lark

by Hamas 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • rebel
    rebel

    SixofNine,

    I think that is what Hamas wants to do - to research how we got the Bible. Like you say - it is pointless trying to work out what it means and what God is trying to say to us, if we are not sure if it is from God in the first place. It is quite a deep subject and will take months of research, or even years, but I have reached a point where I can't just go on accepting what other people tell me - I need to find out for myself.

    I am so grateful for the Internet. It is such a fantastic tool and will make the research so much easier.

    Hamas, let me know how you get on with Gumby's info. I am really interested in finding out as much about the history of the Bible as possible.

    xxR

  • Hamas
    Hamas

    I will Rebel thanks for your support !

  • DJ
    DJ

    Hamas,

    I see it like this....Jesus is the son of God and the son of man. In other words....he was born of a woman and was a man but he was also born w/o an earthly father, therefore he is god. I see that the bible calls him god with a big G in a few places. Hmmm. Does that mean that I have 2 Gods? How can the Father declare that he created the heavens and the earth ALONE, (Isa.) if in Hebrews it says that the son did it? How can there be 2 firsts and lasts, etc, etc, etc...... It only leads one to conclude that they are one in the same, yet.....it says that Jesus is in subjection to the Father. ?? It also says that God is not the author of confusion........ I made a decision not to be confused but to say to myself....."it says what it says, and I just accept it" The jw's never speak of Jesus as the creator yet the bible says He is. He is not the master worker angel. An angel did not create the heavens and the earth. Hebrews is clear about stating that Jesus is not an angel. I must say that while I am not perfectly convinced of the trinity doctrine, I am convinced that the watchtower's Jesus is a false teaching. It is one thing to be mixed up about the trinity and it is quite another thing to purposefully discount the fact that in the beginning God created all things and that creator is Jesus. His creatorship is clearly written in the NWT or any other bible translation. There is a oneness between the Father and Son that is only able to be seen by those whom He chooses to let see it. "No one knows the Father except the Son and those whom he chooses to reveal it." I just prayed about it and I am ok with all of it now. Take care. dj

  • Francois
    Francois

    It's entirely possible that we've got the whole question of the identity of the persons of the Trinity all screwed up as some have intimated here. And it's very true that the bible got to us in a very round about way. Who were the men who decided what books - of all those then available - were to comprise the "Holy Canon"? And how did they get that authority? Same way the GB got its authority? I digress.

    Perhaps it's true that a trinity exists. And perhaps it's also true that the existential God is the First Person of that Trinity. So far, so good. But now we come to the Son and enters all sorts of problems. We have identified the Son, the second person of the Trinity as being one and the same as Jesus Christ. Not so fast. I think that's a mistake. Yes, he called himself the son of God. No doubt about it. But, hey, I'm a son of God, too. And so are all of you. That doesn't make any of us the second person of the Trinity, does it? When you make a different assumption about just who is the second person of the trinity, that it's not Jesus Christ, then some of the difficulty in conceiving of the Trinity disappear. Try it and see.

    As to the Infinite Spirit, the Holy Ghost, or whatever you wanna call the third person of the Trinity, well, I don't know if I can even make a stab at that. Somehow the Spirit is spirit force and spirit action, but at the same time the Spirit is endowed with personality. And I don't know quite what to say about that. Perhaps when we get the riddle of the second person all worked out, it will lead us more easily to the question of the third person of Trinity.

    But one thing I have come to believe is that Jesus Christ is NOT the second person of the Trinity. Try that one on for size and see how it feels in a week or two and let us know.

    francois

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Hi rebel, I'm glad to hear both you and hamas are willing to examine your beliefs. I think looking critically at ALL so called "spiritual" writings and guidance has been every bit as helpful to me as looking critically at JW doctrine.

    I do think you overdramatise the situation when you say "It is quite a deep subject and will take months of research, or even years". It isn't that deep, and a cursory understanding of where the bible comes from is not that hard to get. I understand why it feels like that, but then, you've never approached the subject with an open mind previously, have you? Even now, it will be hard for you to approach it honestly, as you are predisposed to think "it came from God, that's where it came from, if anything makes it look like it didn't come from god, there must be some deep mystery or meaning behind". I think you can see why I say give yourself the gift of reality.

    When something that has remained so close to you is challenged, you begin defending it at whatever cost.

    Well, that may be your tendency, but it is a tendency worth fighting to get rid of. It is afterall, the only reason people remain witnesses. In fact, it might be helpful for you to decide that whenever you feel the need to defend a belief, you instead go off by yourself, and start attacking that belief unmercifully, to yourself. That's honesty, and god, if he/she/it exist, certainly values honesty, don't you think?

    Btw, a good book on the subject is appropriately titled : Who wrote the bible? It only looks at the old testament, but it is fascinating to find out what we know, and even more, what we don't know, about the bible writers.

  • SpannerintheWorks
    SpannerintheWorks

    Francois,

    But one thing I have come to believe is that Jesus Christ is NOT the second person of the Trinity.

    Are you saying that you believe Jesus Christ is the first person of the Trinity?...(Or the third?)

    Spanner

  • Kenneson
    Kenneson

    Francois,

    The title "son of God" is given to angels, (Job 1:6; 2:1)), the children of Israel (Ex. 4:22; Hos. 11:1) and their kings(2 Sam. 7:14; to followers of Christ. It signifies an adoptive sonship that establishes a relationship of particular intimacy between God and His creatures. Scripture, however, no where indicates that Jesus is Son in the same sense. Jesus is the Son who knows the Father and reveals Him to men. (John 1:18; Matt. 11:27; 21:34-38; 24:36) He is superior even to the angels ( Heb. 1:4-5, 13; 1 Peter 3:22) The Father calls Jesus "beloved Son." (Matt. 3:17; 17:5) Jesus calls himself the ONLY Son of God and by this title affirms his eternal pre-existence (John 3:16; 10:36; Rom 1:3,4; Acts 13:33; John 1:14). Christians have always believed that Jesus is the natural Son of God (Matt. 16:16; 1 John 2:23; John 20:31; Acts 9:20; 1 Thess. 1:10) while we are adopted sons (Gal. 4:4-7; Eph. 1:4-5; John 1:12; 1 John 3:1-2)

  • JT
    JT

    you are now entering phase 2 of your journey-

    in the begining you start to question wt and then you see that you were not struck down dead instead you found out that you had been HOODWINKED AND BAMBOOZLED on many life and death issues with WT

    now you are moving to the second phase of this issue called THE BIBLE AND GOD and once again you realize that you have not been struck down dead, my grandma use to say:

    "Baby, don't question THE LARD" NOT LORD, BUT LARD--

    but you plow ahead doing just - many believers are quick to say WELL YOU JUST DON'T WANT TO BE ACCOUNTABLE, you want to drink ,do drugs and run UGLY WOMEN - smile

    of course the fact of the matter is many who no longer accept the bible/god/boggy man. whatever you want to call it

    NEVER WANTED to come to the conclusion that they have, but instead the more they read and asked the harder it became to find support for many of the bogus dogmas that many religions hold on to as Divinely inspired.

    once a person starts down the road of questioning things there really is no need to stop with just JW, and for many they don't ----------------instead their questioning continues right on,

    the technique of using fear like my grandma used to use ------ simply no longer works

    so my advice is continue to question and don't accept any answer esp one that is goofy

    that and then you start to see once again

  • bluesapphire
    bluesapphire

    I say who cares!

    I understand the Trinity. It makes sense to me -- just a matter of semantics is all.

    Do I believe in it? Nahhh.

    But I do say one thing: The Trinity doctrine was developed before even the bible was canonized. IOW, the same *authority* that gave you your bible (whether you're Lutheran, Baptist, BornAgainer, whatever), well that same *authority* gave you the Trinity.

    So it doesn't make sense (to me) why a person would take an entity as authoritative on one aspect and not on another. Either they have authority or they don't. You have to choose.

    I chose not too long ago that they have no authority. So I believe in neither the bible nor the trinity.

  • Francois
    Francois

    Spanner, did I say that? Did I say any of that? No. I don't believe that Jesus Christ is any part of the Trinity.

    And Kenneson, old boy, you really need to ease up on that bible as infallible guide business. Trying to make sense of the bible is what got us in this mess in the first place. There are quite a number of logical flaws in your argumentation, for instance: "Christians have always believed that Jesus Christ blah, blah, blah." That is utterly beside the point, Big K.

    francois

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