I cant believe this Trinity lark

by Hamas 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

hooberus

Gumby said:
Hamas,
I will send you some stuff in a PM when I get all my crap done around here today.
A person who is honest and openminded will have no trouble in not being afraid to examine whether the Bible is from god or not.
Here is something to start with,
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/index.html
Gumby

The jesusneverexisted.com site is not honest or openminded.
The jesusneverexisted.com site says:
Josephus, the first century Jewish historian mentions no fewer than nineteen different Yeshuas/Jesii, about half of them contemporaries of the supposed Christ! In his Antiquities, of the twenty -eight high priests who held office from the reign of Herod the Great to the fall of the Temple, no fewer than four bore the name Jesus: Jesus ben Phiabi, Jesus ben Sec, Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel. Even Saint Paul makes reference to a rival magician, preaching ‘another Jesus’ (2 Corinthians 11,4). The surfeit of early Jesuses includes:
What the site doesn't mention here is that the same book of Josephus that talks about Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel also talks about James the brother of Jesus who was called Christ. The reference to Jesus Christ is even in the same chapter as the others, and even in the same paragraph as one of the others!
While the site mentions and disputes the first reference of Josephus regarding Jesus, I can't find where it even mentions the second reference to Jesus which is generally accepted. The site uses Joesphus as a source for the historicity of Jesus ben Damneus and Jesus ben Gamaliel and ignores the reference to Jesus who was called Christ (a reference which occurrs in the same book, chapter, and even paragraph!).
The various first century witness of the books of the new Testamnt are more than enough to show that Jesus lived. The following site gives an overview of the extra-biblical evidence for the Historicity of Jesus. I have been able to confirm from other sources (including hard volumes) some of the information on the site, and it appears to be a well documented site. The site has several pages which inorder to view a person might need to type the page number in after the "HistJesus" section of the address.
http://www.geocities.com/metacrock2000/Jesus_pages/HistJesus1.htm
AGuest

Dearest Nowisee... the greatest of peace to you!
You ask:
if the bible has been tampered with, if not all is inspired, how are we to listen for the truth.
We listen FOR the truth, dear one, by listening TO the Truth!
Matthew 17:3
John 10:1-3, 27
through prayer?
No, my dear one... prayer... is for the Father, THROUGH Christ. With Christ, however, our conversation should be... well, whenever, for whatever. Constant and consistent. Let me ask you: how often does a husband need to speak to have a good relationship? If, then, we are to be the Bride of Christ, how OFTEN should we communicate with him... and he with us? Does he? Yes!
Hebrews 12:25
And where is "heaven"? The "kingdom," right? Which is IN you, in your MIDST, yes? The question, though, is do WE hear HIM... WHEN he speaks? For most of us, the answer is "yes". Unfortunately, however, we have been taught by earthling man, by RELIGION... and particularly by the WTBTS... that neither NOR Christ speak to us. And nothing could be further from the truth! God DOES speak to us!
does God speak directly to you?
Oh, no, my dear one... my Father speaks to me, just as He speaks to all in His Covenant, the same way He spoke to Israel when under the Law Covenant... through the MEDIATOR of that Covenant. He speaks to ME... and I to HIM... through Christ.
Hebrews 1:2
John 14:6
It is the voice of the Fine Shepherd that I hear... that called me and speaks to me even to this day. I KNOW his voice (John 10:27)... for although it speaks in "low tones" - inaudible with the physical ear - it ALWAYS "utters truth itself".
Proverbs 8:4-11
It is the voice of that One that guides and directs me... and grants me wisdom and knowledge... by means of holy spirit... to speak truth. Do I always hear exactly correctly? For the most part, yes, but not totally always! For I am yet fleshly. And so I have had to learn to hear by means of FAITH... and in those times when I am not sure... I "test" the inspired expression: what is the motive/intent... and is love its purpose?
For in truth, I am just a good-for-nothing servant... given to the Household of God, Israel, to serve it... by means of being a slave of Christ. That One opened my eyes and gave me sight so that I was no longer blind... unstopped my ears so that I was no longer deaf... and "clothed" me... with his love. For these things and more, I consider myself indebted to him... and thus, slave for him. He sends me to those searching for him... to call them BACK to him (for they have been led astray, AWAY from him by means of "religion" and earthling man)... and so, I speak. That is why I say to you that what you hear is not mine: it is from him that gave it to me, by means of holy spirit.
So, what about me... should you listen to me? Not at ALL!! You were told, were you not, NOT to put your trust in earthling man, yes? And I... am of "earthling man." You are to listen to ONE... for only one is your "leader"... only one is your mediator. LISTEN to HIM! And that is... and has always been my messge, the message that I have been sent to give to the Household of God, Israel, and all those that go with them:
Listen to the One that speaks to you from the heavens, the one that grants everlasting life by means of the spirit of God, holy spirit, which that One pours out upon those asking, wishing, thirsting and hearing. IF you have ears to hear... hear what HE says, when he says:
"You are searching the scriptures because you think that by means of them you will have everlasting life; and these are the very ones that bear witness about ME. And yet... you do not want to COME TO ME... that you may have life..."
Listen to HIM... the One that says to you:
"You THINK you rich... but you do not know that you
are nakes and blind and miserable. I advise you to buy
FROM ME... eyesalve... that you MAY see..."
My message, dear Nowisee, is to tell all who are wishing, who are thirsting, who are hearing, that if they hear the Master "knocking"... and open to HIM... he will come and take the evening meal with YOU! But you... must leave off any "shame" of him before men... and declare who... and what... you are... by means of accepting what he offers to you... LIFE... by means of HIS flesh and blood. Because there are those who sole purpose in THIS world... is to stop you from doing so, by means of convincing you that you shouldn't... in direct opposition to what my Lord, himself, SAID:
"UNLESS you eat the flesh of the son and man, and drink HIS blood, you have NO life in yourselves!"
I am just a messenger, dear Nowisee. Nothing more.
Again, I bid you the greatest of peace.
YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
SJ
asleif_dufansdottir

I suppose that one example is in Job, where the earth is defined as a sphere far before Columbus was born.
Do not make the mistake of thinking that just because the Europeans, at one point, believed the earth was flat, that all cultures everywhere on earth have always thought the earth was flat, until Columbus and his little boat trip.
rocketman

Sometimes, I wonder whether simply believing that the Bible contradicts itself is what is need to understand why some scriptures seem to point to a trinity and others do not.
hooberus

AGuest said:
May you all have peace... and may I respond? Thank you!
1. The Bible is NOT inspired. Only scripture is "inspired." What is "scripture"? That which is inspired. Inspired means to be IN THE SPIRIT when the writer writes it... and since "in spirit"... in the presence of GOD. And therefore, while in the presence of God told BY God (and not man - Luke 1:1-4)... through Christ... to "write". Therefore, only Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets (which includes books that are not apart of the "usual" Bible canon(s)), and the Revelation... are "inspired." How do we know?

a. My Lord himself quoted "scripture" and taught his discples from them.
Luke 24:27, 44 b. A man, Theophilus, commissioned Luke to write, and not NOT God... and Luke got his information from OTHERS (most of whom were "there")... NOT God. Neither Luke nor the other apostles - Matthew, Mark (Peter's son), Paul, Peter, or James - were inspired. John was the only one.

Paul as well as the other apostles wrote scripture (2 Peter 3:16) thus they were inspired since "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 2:3).
2 Peter chapter 3
[15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
2 Timothy chapter 3
[15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
AGuest

Dearest Hooberus... may you have peace!
Paul as well as the other apostles wrote scripture (2 Peter 3:16) thus they were inspired since "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 2:3).
Of the only Apostles who wrote - Matthew, John, Peter, Paul and James - only John claims inspiration. Neither Mark nor Luke were apostles. Paul professed speaking of his own opinion; yet, my Lord said he spoke NOTHING of his own initiative. John wrote only what he was TOLD to write, AS he was told to write it. Luke wrote at the behest of Theophilus, based on what others (not God) told him, and professed that right from the start. Matthew's account wasn't written BY Matthew, nor was it written in Greek. It was written in Aramaic... and it was someone SAYING what Matthew said. The same with Mark, who was telling what PETER related to him (he was Peter's son). Thus, it is "according to" Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.
And, yes, "all SCRIPTURE is inspired," true. Paul's letters, however, were not "scripture," and we know this via two (2) ways:
1. At times, Paul said he was speaking of his own opinion;
2. Various letters correct other letters. For example, 2 Corinthians (his third letter) corrects Paul's misunderstandings brought out in his first two letters, the first of which no longer exists. Then his letter to the Romans corrects them even more. That is why some people have a problem with them and consider them to contradict one another. They are, in fact, evidence of Paul's spiritual progress. IF they were inspired... the spirit would not "change"... teaching judging those among them one day... and NOT to judge another. The Spirit... is the spirit of the Truth... and does not change.
2 Peter chapter 3 [15] And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
Indeed, Paul was given wisdom, a "gift" of holy spirit - 2 Corinthians 12:8. It is the same gift by means of which I often write, as well, in response to many things. But, unless my Lord SAYS to write it... and takes one "in spirit" so as to see and understand the things being written... and it is written just as the SPIRIT directs... it is NOT "inspired".
"Scripture," then, is "Moses, the Psalms, the Prophets"... and the Revelation... for these WERE inspired, written while the writer was "in spirit" and under direct lead of Holy Spirit.
[16] As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
You misunderstand this statement, dear one, as many do. Paul, in his letters, SPOKE of "the patience of our Lord as salvation," using scripture to support his explanations. These "things" (his explanations), however, contained things hard to understand to those "unlearned," because they were not "taught by holy spirit." So, they tried to twist Paul's explanations of scriptures, just as they twisted OTHER scriptures.
But to help you further, let's look at your next quote:
2 Timothy chapter 3 [15] And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
In speaking to Timothy, Paul reminded him that from a child he (Timothy) had "known the holy scriptures." May I ask you... at what age was Timothy when Paul made this statement? Was he an infant? No. So, Paul could NOT have been talking about any of the letters, as they were written LONG after Timothy was an infant. Yet, the SCRIPTURES were around so that FROM infancy, Timothy knew them.
Even if Timothy were age 30 when Paul wrote this letter to him, he could not have been born before the year 30 CE. Yet, ALL of the writings under the NEW Covenant were written after that time. To what, then, was Paul referring? Your position, however, seems to be that Timothy knew from infancy that which had not yet been written. The Holy Scriptures, however, Moses, Psalms and the Prophets... and even perhaps the Revelation (although that is another subject entirely and I won't go into here)... were written even before Timothy was born.
[16] All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
[17] That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
And that's the "thing" with Paul: he said the above. He also taught disfellowshipping and shunning. And so now, so MANY are enslaved to "following" Paul. Indeed, there are CHURCHES built on following him... and he is certainly the "leader" of the WTBTS, although I am not sure that is what he purposed.
MY "leader", however, is One (Matthew 23:10)... and HE is recorded to have said:
John 5:39, 40, John 10:1-3, 27 and John 14:15-17, 26
So, you must choose for yourself whom YOU will "follow". As for me... I cannot do anything but follow the Lamb... wherever HE goes.
Again, I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
ThiChi

When one undertakes the why and how the Trinity got its start, you can see man’s hand in the matter. The Book, When Jesus Became God, gives a good account. The very simple fact is that the first, second century Christians did not believe in a trinity. Even the Catholics, the officiator of this belief, under penalty death, admits this (new light in 300AD? Yea, right). The post-Apostolic Fathers used language that placed Jesus and God as two different persons. ("May the Great, Powerful God and his living Son, Jesus Christ, bless you...")
"The question is not if Jesus is divine, but the extent of his divinity is the question."
Ray Franz
hooberus

When one undertakes the why and how the Trinity got its start, you can see man’s hand in the matter. The Book, When Jesus Became God, gives a good account. The very simple fact is that the first, second century Christians did not believe in a trinity.
Yes, they did. I'll try to post some citations from early fathers showing that while they may not have used the word trinity that they did believe that Jesus and the Father were both Lord and God.
The post-Apostolic Fathers used language that placed Jesus and God as two different persons. ("May the Great, Powerful God and his living Son, Jesus Christ, bless you...")
The Trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus and God the Father are two different persons.
AGuest

Some believed... some didn't. Just as some believed the resurrection had already occurred... and some didn't. Just as some believed in circumcision... and some didn't. Just as some believed in following the apostles... and some didn't. Just as some gathered... and some didn't. What the 1st century folks... and subsequent churches BELIEVED... is irrelevant. What is relevant... is the truth:
The Trinity doctrine teaches three separate individuals in one "god-head"... or something like that. I must say that in all of the things that the WTBTS teaches, so far my Lord has taught me that this is the ONLY thing they have correct: that God is not a trinity, not part of one.
God... however, is "one" (Deuteronomy 6:4, 5). He is the Father, the Holy One of Israel, JAH... of Armies. Second only to HIM, is the Son, His Christ and my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH. There is also the "mother"... the "barren woman" with whose seed Satan is now waging war... the spirit realm, Jerusalem Above.
Like Abraham, my Father has two (2) "wives":
1. Jerusalem Above, the "free" wife of the Father, with whom He "bears" children, starting first with my Lord (Galatians 4:26). It is from HER womb, the "Ark"... that all things "good" were made ("In the beginning" is truly rendered as "In the Ark..."). Jerusalem ABOVE... the spirit realm... is free... and thus, "her" children are free... by means of the spirit... born by means of a PROMISE.
2. He also has a "slave" wife is the earth, with whom He bore Adam first, and whose children are born in the manner of the flesh, and thus are slaves... TO the flesh.
These are "Sarah" (the free wife) and "Hagar" (the slave wife)... and are depicted by the two (2) covenants: Sinai, mediated by Moses, for the children of the flesh... binding them to the laws of the Old Covenant... and New Jerusalem, mediated by Christ, for the children of the spirit... set free from the Law Covenant by means the NEW Covenant.
The Holy Spirit... is none other than my Lord himself (2 Corinthians 3:17 - please see Greek), who, after giving up his physical life in the flesh, was glorified and became a life-giving SPIRIT. Thus, the 'helper'... the 'spirit of the truth,' is the SPIRIT of my Lord... the One who is the Truth (John 146:26). He refered to the spirit in the third person because he had not yet BECOME that spirit... the "life-giving" spirit... that imparts everlasting life and teaches us all things. At the time he spoke of it, he was still in the flesh, and thus whatever blessings he bestowed were only temporary, a foreshadow to what he could/would do... permanently... as a spirit.
The mistransliteration of my Lords words at Matthew 28:19 is what created the myth of a trinity, to support trinitarian beliefs already in existence with other "religions". As implied by the word, a trinity would include THREE; yet, there is only the Father... and the Son/Holy Spirit. Thus, that verse TRULY was stated as:
"Go, therefore, and make disciples... baptizing them IN THE NAME OF THE FATHER... INTO THE SON (so that "union" is formed and such ones become one, IN SPIRIT with God, by means of being ONE... with Christ)... IN HOLY SPIRIT (the "living water" and life force of God)..."
and so would be stated, today, as "I baptize you, in the name of JAH, into the Body of His Son, Christ, by means of holy spirit." Or, "In the name of JAH, with holy spirit I baptize you into the Body of Christ."
But you should not listen to me on this; rather, listen to the One who speaks from the heavens. ASK... and you shall receive.
I bid you peace.
A slave of Christ,
SJ
hooberus

The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all from everlasting.
"The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting" Psalm 93:1-2
"But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2
"How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:14
Notes:
Psalm 93:2 and Micah 5:2 have a very similar reading structure.
The same hebrew word for everlasting (strongs #5769) used to express the eternity of God in Psalm 93:2 is used to express the eternity of Christ in Micah 5:2

I cant believe this Trinity lark

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