I cant believe this Trinity lark

by Hamas 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are one God.

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" Deuteronomy 6:4

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 john 5:7

    The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are different persons.

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." 2 Corinthians 13:14

    Notes: There are greek manuscripts which do contain 1 John 5:7, In addition it was cited by very ancient Church fathers. Also if the verse is omitted there is a gramatical problem created.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are all from everlasting

    Indeed, dear Hooberus (and peace to you!) The Father, first. The Son… FROM the Father. And t he Holy Spirit… the Son glorified by means of the spirit of God. All eternal.

    "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting" Psalm 93:1-2

    I would check the Hebrew on this, dear ‘Hoob… as what has been misrendered here as “Lord”… or “Adhonai” was, in truth, JAHVEH… so that it would accurately have read, “JAH of Armies reigneth… JAH of Armies is clothed…”

    "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

    Again, I agree. For my Lord was the first thing “created” by my Father. And by means of that One… indeed FOR that One… all others things were created. Not BY him… but by MEANS of him… and FOR him. Why? He is the Son: it is his inheritance!

    "How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" Hebrews 9:14

    But this is the TRUTH… albeit, “spirit” is not capitalized. This verse says what is TRUE: my Lord, through an eternal spirit, and EVERLASTING spirit which DOES NOT DIE… which was given him BY GOD… for it was GOD’s spirit… GOD’s life force that now resided in HIM… offered himself without spot TO God…

    · Psalm 93:2

    If rulership on the firmly established and everlasting throne of ONE… is granted by such one TO ANOTHER, so that ALL things are subject to the recipient with the exception of the one who granted it, has the first relinquished rulership? Or has the second only gained that which truly and always will belong to the first, so that now they BOTH have a firmly established rulership and everlasting throne?

    · The same hebrew word for everlasting (strongs #5769) used to express the eternity of God in Psalm 93:2 is used to express the eternity of Christ in Micah 5:2

    And are they not both ETERNAL? And will not those who put on immortality ALSO become “eternal”? Yet, God had no beginning, where my Lord did. It is no END that they share… and we with them!

    The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, are one God.

    Believe what you will, dear Hooberus.

    "Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD" Deuteronomy 6:4

    Indeed.

    "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." 1 john 5:7

    Again, I would deign to listen to my Lord… versus a Bible version (for some do not include these words). For the word “one” here does not note one entity… but one, as in “IN UNION”. I, too, am “one” with my Lord AND with the Father, by means of the flesh and blood of Christ. We are ONE… SPIRIT… because we are ONE body. (John 6:56; Ephesians 4:4) However, although I am one WITH them… am NOT the Son, nor am I the Father… nor am I the Holy Spirit.

    The Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are different persons.

    Absolutely. I agree.

    "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, be with you all. Amen." 2 Corinthians 13:14

    Yes! And this is the “truth” that my Lord has taught me… since he has been entrusted with judging the Household of God, and thus pleads with God for us, God’s mercy now lies in his hands. Since God is love… and the love the Master showed is that which he RECEIVED from God… it is God’s. And it is by means of holy spirit… that we can be IN UNION with God… by means of being IN UNION with Christ… and thus, IN UNION with one another. For Christ is the HEAD… and we the BODY… so that TOGETHER… we make up ONE SPIRIT... and ONE "temple”… in which God dwells.

    Notes: There are greek manuscripts which do contain 1 John 5:7, In addition it was cited by very ancient Church fathers. Also if the verse is omitted there is a gramatical problem created.

    When I first read the verse, I wanted to dispute its legitimacy (old WT “stuff”, I guess!). However, my Lord, who always speaks truth, did not permit that; rather, he explained to me what was meant by the words… which explanation I have shared with you, above.

    Now, at this point, I am compelled by the spirit of my Lord that is in me, holy spirit, to listen to our "brother" DJ... who spoke in love, and since in love, then from God, through Christ, for his counsel was "good", in that we should no longer let our different understandings stand as a division between us, and thus a division of the Christ. This... is NOT good. So, I will leave off from such discussions at this point, dear Hooberus, for there seems to be no benefit in them... for either of us. I believe that my love of Christ... and yours... will allow the Spirit to guide us both into "ALL truth"... so that at some point we will reach agreement. Until then,

    May the undeserved kindness and mercy of my God and Father, the Holy One of Israel, whose name is JAH of Armies, and the peace of His Son and Christ, my Lord, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH... be upon you. And on you, too, dear DJ. Again, thank you for YOUR loving kindness.

    YOUR servant and "fellow" slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    AGuest said: Again, I agree. For my Lord was the first thing “created” by my Father.

    The Son is from everlasting. Someone cannot be "created" and be "from everlasting" at the same time.

    "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting" Psalm 93:1-2

    "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

    And by means of that One… indeed FOR that One… all others things were created. Not BY him… but by MEANS of him… and FOR him. Why? He is the Son: it is his inheritance!

    The word "others" is not in the Greek! John 1:3 shows that all things were created by him. The phrase "without him was not anything made that was made" proves that He is not a thing that was made.

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    AGuest said: And are they not both ETERNAL? And will not those who put on immortality ALSO become “eternal”? Yet, God had no beginning, where my Lord did. It is no END that they share… and we with them!

    Jesus is eternal and as the Son of God has no beginning.

    "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." Hebrews 7:3

    Now, at this point, I am compelled by the spirit of my Lord that is in me, holy spirit, to listen to our "brother" DJ... who spoke in love, and since in love, then from God, through Christ, for his counsel was "good", in that we should no longer let our different understandings stand as a division between us, and thus a division of the Christ. This... is NOT good. So, I will leave off from such discussions at this point, dear Hooberus, for there seems to be no benefit in them... for either of us. I believe that my love of Christ... and yours... will allow the Spirit to guide us both into "ALL truth"... so that at some point we will reach agreement. Until then,

    You have a different Christ than the Eternal Lord Jesus Christ of the Scriptures.

    "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:5

    2 Corinthians Chapter 11

    [4] For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.[5] For I suppose I was not a whit behind the very chiefest apostles.
    [6] But though I be rude in speech, yet not in knowledge; but we have been throughly made manifest among you in all things.
    [7] Have I committed an offence in abasing myself that ye might be exalted, because I have preached to you the gospel of God freely?
    [8] I robbed other churches, taking wages of them, to do you service.
    [9] And when I was present with you, and wanted, I was chargeable to no man: for that which was lacking to me the brethren which came from Macedonia supplied: and in all things I have kept myself from being burdensome unto you, and so will I keep myself.
    [10] As the truth of Christ is in me, no man shall stop me of this boasting in the regions of Achaia.
    [11] Wherefore? because I love you not? God knoweth.
    [12] But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
    [13] For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
    [14] And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
    [15] Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." I John 4:1

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    The Son is from everlasting. Someone cannot be "created" and be "from everlasting" at the same time.

    I have responded to this statement in another thread.

    "The LORD reigneth, he is clothed with majesty; the LORD is clothed with strength, wherewith he hath girded himself: the world also is stablished, that it cannot be moved. Thy throne is established of old: thou art from everlasting" Psalm 93:1-2

    This is speaking of the Father. The Bible "version" YOU use supports the trinity belief, so it would have "the LORD" anywhere that my Father's name formerly appeared. I would direct you, then, to check either a different version... or the Hebrew.

    "But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting." Micah 5:2

    I think you should look up the Hebrew word here that you mistransliterated to mean having no beginning and no end. For in TRUTH, the word, "yowm"... means several things. You have simply chosen the one that supports your belief. And don't we all? So that I could choose any one of the OTHER means... and strongly support mine. But... I would much rather just put my faith in the voice of my Lord. It is more "trustworthy."

    Proverbs 8:4-11

    The word "others" is not in the Greek! John 1:3 shows that all things were created by him. The phrase "without him was not anything made that was made" proves that He is not a thing that was made.

    True, the word "other" is not in the Greek. Now, the fact that the gospels were not originally WRITTEN in Greek, but translated from Aramaic aside... I wish to state to you just what those recorded words DID say:

    "All things THROUGH him came to be and apart from him came to be not but one thing."

    And this saying is TRUE. For my Lord was the MEANS... by which the Father made all things. Do you understand that? My Lord was created FIRST... and then by means of HIM... as well as FOR him... everything else came to be. It is like sourdough... and I won't go into the particulars of that at this time. What I will ask you to do is to imagine a tree... in fact, the Tree of Life, if you will. It has roots. My Lord... are the roots... and we (and all things, initially) are the branches. However, my FATHER... planted that Tree. HE... is the "cultivator." My Lord... is the Tree of LIFE... from all who wish to LIVE... to be "cured"... must EAT. And my Father is the One who created... "planted"... that Tree.

    Genesis 2:9; John 15:1; Revelation 22:2; John 6:51, 53

    John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    Please see above.

    Jesus is eternal and as the Son of God has no beginning.

    Again, I refer you to the other thread, "Part II" I believe.

    "Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually." Hebrews 7:3

    I am SO glad you chose to use this particular verse, for it compels me to ask you: was Melchizedek a part of the trinity? Was it "the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit... and Melchizedek"? For if Melchizedek's being "like unto the Son of God," meant that HE was from "everlasting," then he TOO must be included, yes?

    Okay, I'm sorry... my Lord has directed me to rein in my sarcasm... and speak to you plainly: this verse speaks of the fact that Melchizedek had NO GENEAOLOGY. What does that mean? Melchizedek was a king and priest... but there was no RECORD of his lineage that would account for him to rightly be so. How's that? In Israel, priests RIGHTLY came from the line of Aaron. If one could not PROVE one was from Aaron's line... one could not rightly BE a priest. (When Jeroboam usurped the throne of David, dividing the kingdom (as a result of Rehoboam's hard heart)... and installed priests "from anyone HE chose" to perform, Bethel, where they served, became a center of FALSE worship).

    Melchizedek had no BLOOD line to establish him as king and priest. There was no RECORD to say who his father or mother were. And yet, Abraham recognized him as such. LIKE Melchizedek, my Lord had NO lineage to establish HIM as a priest: HE... was from the tribe of JUDAH... but under the Law Covenant, NO priest was to come from Judah. This account, then, comparing my Lord to Melchizedek, was stated for the SOLE purpose of showing how things had CHANGED... how the Law Covenant... with its requirement of an Aaronic priesthood... had been REPLACED... by a NEW Covenant... with Judah now established as the priestly line... by means of Christ.

    I implore you... re-read the account. Please.

    You have a different Christ than the Eternal Lord Jesus Christ of the Scriptures.

    I will openly admit and readily confess than I DO have a different Lord than the "Jesus" of the King James and other Bibles. For MY Lord is the VERY One about whom the scriptures, Moses, Psalms, the Prophets and the Revelation... bear witness. He is the Way, the Truth and the Life... a SPIRIT... the living SON of the Holy One of Israel, the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, whose name is JAH... of Armies... and by HIS name, "JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH", is the One who comes... in the name of JAH.

    "For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many." Matthew 24:5

    Indeed. MANY.

    2 Corinthians Chapter 11

    Again, please see the other thread.

    "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." I John 4:1

    Absolutely. You MUST test the inspired expression, as must I. And I have heard my Lord's voice... and shared with you that which he gave me as a "second witness"... from the "word" in which YOU put YOUR faith - the Bible. As for me, I will continue in MY faith of listening to the TRUE Word of God, the One who speaks from the heavens, and whose voice I KNOW... JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH.

    Matthew 17:3; Hebrews 12:25; John 10:27

    Again, I bid you peace.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • LittleToe
    LittleToe

    Shelby:
    Why do you suppose our Lord allow's different understandings of His words?

    As I was reading this thread, this morning, I got to asking about Matt.28.
    I thought about emailing you about it (since a mutual friend has given me your email address), but two minutes later, as I carried on reading, I came upon your reference to it.

    Now my understanding was not enlightened by what you expressed. In fact the reaction, in the Spirit, was that it was an interpretive translation you gave. The literal one reads far different, and is far more in line with my understanding of John 20:28, and John 17 (which came up in my readings just now - especially verse 10).

    And as for the Holy Spirit being our Lord...
    ...I can't follow that - John 14:16 seems to contradict, for one.

    As for inspired scripture - I kinda like the gospel of John, too. It has a good "feel" about it - and it IS the gospel of "love", after all

    Sorry about the poor cohesion, to this post.
    In peace and love, I remain yours...

  • Pleasuredome
    Pleasuredome

    what about 2Cor 3:17 "Now Jehovah is the Spirit;"(NWT) 2Cor 3:18 "...as done by Jehovah the Spirit." notice how spirit is spelt with a capital S.

    when talking about Jesus Heb 1:6 says "Let all God's angels worship him." (1970 NWT)

    and Thomas saying "my Lord my God" John 20:28

    these scriptures lead to the questioning of extreme untiarianism by the WTS. the charge that the bible may have been tampered with thousands of years ago to support the trinity, makes the trinity claim more spurious.

    i believe you have to go with what you feel is right.

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    AGusestsaid: I have responded to this statement in another thread. My Lord indeed had a "beginning." However, he shall have no end.

    Colossians 1:15; Revelation 3:14

    Colossians 1:15, has to ripped out of context in order to support a "created" christ. I'll deal with both of these verses when time allows.

    Re: Psalm 93:2 AGuest said: This is speaking of the Father. The Bible "version" YOU use supports the trinity belief, so it would have "the LORD" anywhere that my Father's name formerly appeared. I would direct you, then, to check either a different version... or the Hebrew.

    The KJV translates the tetragrasmmaton YHWH as "LORD" with all capitals. I know that you disagree with this practice. However the fact remains that whether to spell out YHWH or use the all capitals "LORD", that Jesus Christ is YHWH. Psalm 93:2 is not Just talking about the Father, but also the Son, since both are YHWH.

    Re: Micah 5:2 AGuest said: I think you should look up the Hebrew word here that you mistransliterated to mean having no beginning and no end. For in TRUTH, the word, "yowm"... means several things. You have simply chosen the one that supports your belief. And don't we all? So that I could choose any one of the OTHER means... and strongly support mine. But... I would much rather just put my faith in the voice of my Lord. It is more "trustworthy."

    The translation that I used was the KJV. By comparing Psalm 93:2 and Micah 5:2 you see the following:

    Notes:

  • Psalm 93:2 and Micah 5:2 have a very similar reading structure.
  • The same hebrew word for everlasting (strongs #5769) used to express the eternity of God in Psalm 93:2 is used to express the eternity of Christ in Micah 5:2
  • Francois
    Francois

    I don't belive a person here knows WTF they're talking about. I do think, however, that everyone here has their favorite interpretation of what's happenin' with the trinity argumentation and will jaw bone it to death given half a chance (including myself in this). It's just a fun way to dispute over gnats with your friends, right?

    Have a blast.

    francois

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    … the peace of Christ and love of God to you!

    As I started writing this, I had at first said that I was not sure WHY our Lord permits different understandings, as he had not yet revealed his reason to me (perhaps because I have not asked). But during the course of posting this, I asked. I will share with you what my Lord has said to me, after I continue with what I was initially going to post. To wit:

    We tend to think, sometimes, that we WILL all have the same understanding simply because we possess the same spirit. But there are several accounts that bear witness against that, including the account regarding circumcision. First, if you will recall, Peter first tried to tell “the apostles and brothers in Judea”… ALL of whom had received the promised holy spirit… that circumcision was NOT required. However, the spirit in these men did not permit them to fully grasp that, so that they went on preaching it. Then, Paul and Barnabas tried to tell them something similar, that although not circumcised, the people that they preached to received holy spirit… and Peter again backed them up… but it was not until JAMES said it, that it was accepted and believed. Now, Peter and Paul supposedly had the SAME spirit as James… and as these men. Why the difference?

    Acts 11:1, 2, 18; 15:1-11, 19, 28

    In another account, the man Aquila, and his wife Prisca, had to “expound the way more correctly” to the Alexandrian Jew, Apollo. Now, Apollo was “aglow with the spirit,” and so went teaching with correctness the things about Jesus.” Yet, he only knew of the baptism of John. Why? Why had not the same spirit that revealed it to Prisca and Aquila revealed it to him?

    Acts 18:24-28

    There is also the account of Paul’s position versus the apostles on “disfellowshipping,” the “nations” who received holy spirit “having lofty ideas” over the Jews who had received it, Paul and Barnabas disagreeing over Mark, Paul and the apostles disagreeing to the point of separating for 14 years… etc., etc., etc. But their difference of understandings did not divide them… for the spirit of LOVE that resided in them… did not permit it. What ‘divided’ them… was when they began to “bite” one another OVER their disagreements… almost to the point of annihilating one another, spiritually.

    As for your question as to why my Lord allows different understandings, I am compelled to ask you: Why didn’t the same God who revealed His name to Moses, NOT reveal it to Abraham, the “father” of Israel, as well as to Isaac and Israel (Jacob) himself? Why did my Lord reveal to John what he did not reveal to the other 10? Why show Peter a “sheet” of “unclean” things, and not the others? Why appear in a flash of light to Paul… and make him an apostle to the nations… and not the others? Why show Thomas a body with piercings? My Lord’s answer to these things is, for EACH of us at a given time,“There are many things I have to tell you, but you are not able to bear them yet.” So that what we are given is what WE can BEAR… at such time.

    In addition, there are those who need the "Law"... to be "written on stone tablets"... rather than in their hearts... so that they trust only what the SEE (read) with their eyes... rather than what they HEAR... in their hearts. I have been taught by the spirit that is IN me, the spirit of God and Christ, HOLY SPIRIT, to put FAITH in "the thing HEARD." For as my Lord first told me, "All the things that I will tell you are written; however, not everything that is written is what I will tell you, as the pen of the scribes is false."

    Romans 8:9, 10; 10:17; Jeremiah 8:8

    Thus, it does not matter what I think… or what I say… or what others… including the apostles… think or say. For we are, all of us, earthling man. And we were told NOT to put our trust in earthling man. What DO we do, then? But a s my Lord himself is recorded to have said... and I have learned to TRUST: “YOU… continue following me.”

    So, I, too, can spend my time deriding those who are in disagreement with the spirit that speaks to me, dear Little Toe. I can oppose and contend with them, but it will change nothing: they will read/hear what they read/hear… and I will hear… what I hear. Thus, I… have no choice than to continue “following the Lamb… wherever HE goes!” For if I were to stop putting my faith in “the thing heard,” what then? The One who speaks to me has sayings of everlasting life. He has offered me the privilege of telling others what he has told me: to come to HIM… and listen to HIM… and not me… if one wishes to know the truth. For he IS the Truth! And to come to HIM… and not me… if one wishes to receive life and have it in abundance.

    If by sharing this I am… “anti-christ”, then the saying “A house divided against itself will not stand,” is not true. For I am a “member” of the Household of that One… and no other. And the spirit by which I speak is not mine, but what has been granted me… holy spirit… so that I am nothing more than a slave… speaking as I ‘hear’. And if one ‘tests’ the inspired expression and believe it to be false, that is their perogative… as it is mine to ‘test’ theirs… and believe as I do.

    Again, I bid you peace.

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    ... may you have peace!

    You ask:

    What about 2Cor 3:17 "Now Jehovah is the Spirit;"(NWT)

    I would ask you to check your Greek, and your NWT Reference Bible footnote and appendix. For the word here was NOT "Jehovah,"... but "the Lord." Hence, "... the LORD... is the Spirit."

    2Cor 3:18 "...as done by Jehovah the Spirit." notice how spirit is spelt with a capital S.

    I DO notice... and again refer you to the Greek, the Ref. Bible, the footnote... and the appendix.

    when talking about Jesus Heb 1:6 says "Let all God's angels worship him." (1970 NWT)

    Well, let me ask YOU: when a son INHERITS his father's belongings... including, let's say, angels... what SHOULD the angels do? Who SHOULD they now worship? While you think about that, may I direct you back to verse 5, which says:

    "To which of the angels did he (God) EVER say, 'You are my SON; I, today, I... have become your FATHER?' and again: 'I myself shall become his FATHER, and he himself will become my SON?"

    and Thomas saying "my Lord my God" John 20:28

    Okay, try this: Revelation 5:1-10. Here, you see:

    1. God, seated on His throne, with a scroll in His right hand (5:1) 2. An angel who asks who is worthy to open the scroll... (5:2) 3. John crying hard because there appeared to be no one worthy... (5:4) 4. An elder telling John to stop crying because the LAMB is worthy... (5:5) 5. The LAMB... taking the scroll FROM GOD... (5:7) 6. The four living creatures (angels of God) AND the 24 elders... falling down... BEFORE THE LAMB. (5:8)

    Was God angry when they did this? No. Why? Because, as Thomas realized... we must KISS THE SON! For HE is the One who God appointed... to receive the kingdom... AND THE GLORY! In turn, however, rather than desiring the glory, the SON... gives the glory... TO THE FATHER!

    It is the example he set for US, dear one: that to be the GREATEST, one must be LEAST. My Lord knows his position, that he is second only to God. But unlike US... he does not "lord it over". Rather, HE... "emptied himself out and took a slave's form." Why? Because that is how he IS. True, as a king he has "all authority." But he SHOWED us how his "authority" will be adminstered when he was HERE: in peace, love... and humility. Although a spirit... he has not changed.

    these scriptures lead to the questioning of extreme untiarianism by the WTS. the charge that the bible may have been tampered with thousands of years ago to support the trinity, makes the trinity claim more spurious.

    I am not sure just what you mean here: the Bible HAS been tampered with. It was prophesied that it would be. The WTBTS, however, does NOT support that truth.

    i believe you have to go with what you feel is right.

    Indeed. I have no choice.

    Again, peace to you!

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

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