I cant believe this Trinity lark

by Hamas 77 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest DJ... may you have peace.

    Shelby did not answer her outrageous claim?

    I apologize, dear DJ: I did not think my "claim" outrageous... because it is true. Were it not, believe me, more than you would have objected.

    I have never heard of the New testament being written in Aramaic.

    Because YOU have never heard of it makes it outrageous? Truly?

    Has anyone ever heard that one?

    Of course others have, dear DJ. But I will try to appeal to your sense of... well, logic:

    Who among the twelve were Greek? Was my Lord Greek? Was PAUL Greek? The 12, dear one, were Jews... as was my Lord... and spoke ARAMAIC... as did my Lord... which is a language derived of Hebrew... and Chaldean (Babylonian). It is the language the Jews spoke on returning from exile in Babylon. Paul was also a Jew... but a Roman citizen... and therefore HAD to speak Aramiac (as he spoke to the 12...) as well as Greek (because he traveled through Greek territory quite a bit).

    Another example would be the times when the Greek had NO translation/ transliteration for certain ARAMAIC expressions. For example: "Eli, Eli, lama sabach thani." Why say, "which means"...? Why not just say it in Greek?

    All of that aside, I would invite you to research the matter, actually. Matthew was CERTAINLY written in Aramaic, which was then translated to Greek... John would have written in the same language my Lord SPOKE to him in (even if he was on a Greek island), James was my Lord's brother and so quite understandably spoke (and thus wrote) in the same language... and Peter, too, spoke Aramaic. None of these, save Paul... an apostle to the nations... would need to speak or write in Greek. And even though Peter was sent to the "nations" (the "gentiles"), he was sent to the "nations" that were not JEWS... the Samaritans, who were Israelites, but resided in the region of Samaria. These, most probably spoke a combination of Hebrew/ Assyrian/Roman (early Latin?).

    To assert that is true and by doing so you have given yourself permission to add words in brackets that change the original meaning......is just plain sad.

    I didn't "insert" anything. I simply used a translation that had done so... the same as Hooberus used HIS translation of choice... which, too, has... ummm... changes. (I must say I find it quite... ummmm... strange... that taking the original word, "JHVH" and replacing it with "LORD"... didn't get you up in such a dander, but...).

    Anyway, anyone here can tell you that I am among the first of those here who will tell you that the "Bible" - whatever version - has been altered, changed, tampered with, etc. (Lord, I don't know HOW many times I've posted that very thing!) And I attempted to change nothing... original meaning or otherwise. I simply stated what is true: that my Father created my Lord... and using him... created everything else (which can also be worded as "created all other things.") Like sourdough. May I suggest, that while you're looking up the language of the Christ and the 12, you also look up the process of making sourdough? You might find both quite... ummmm... "enlightening."

    Peace to you, dear DJ!

    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • DJ
    DJ

    Aguest,
    While appealing to my "logic", you have forgotten that it is mere speculation. All of it! You merely assume, that the jw's were right. There is no way of knowing for sure. There are no Aramaic manuscripts...lol. You hold many jw teachings, don't you? Just as you still claim to be a member of the 144,000 from the tribe on Benjamin.......you hold to many false teachings of the wt.

  • AGuest
    AGuest

    Dearest DJ... okay, now I'm confused (peace to you!)

    While appealing to my "logic", you have forgotten that it is mere speculation. All of it!

    Actually, it isn't. Not all of it. The WTBTS has only Matthew being originally written in Aramaic. However, if you would condescend to RESEARCH the matter, you would see this.

    You merely assume, that the jw's were right.

    I assume... NOTHING is "right" with the WTBTS... which is how I have come to know what things are "wrong." I asked. And when I couldn't put faith in what I "heard"... I researched.

    There is no way of knowing for sure. There are no Aramaic manuscripts...lol.

    Let me quote something for you, at least with regard to Matthew:

    "While there is absolutely nothing in the Gospel itself to lead us to imagine that it is a translation, and, on the contrary, everything favors the view that the present Greek text, with its perpetual verbal correspondence with the other synoptists... we have the ORIGINAL composition of the author himself; yet (meaning of top of having the original text), the unanimous testimony of all antiquity affirms that Matthew wrote his gospel in Hebrew, i.e., Aramaic or Syro-Chaldean dialect, which was the VERNACULAR tongue of the then inhabitants of Palestine." McClintock & Strong, Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, Volume V. 1867-1887, reprint 1981.
    Now... my Lord TOLD me in what language the accounts of his disciples, save Paul, were written. But... BECAUSE of my skepticism over ANYTHING believed by the WTBTS... who at least had Matthew right (they also use M&S and many others to get their information), I didn't just put faith in it; I LOOKED IT UP. But that... was a LONG time ago; I no longer need to question what he tells me because, to date, regarding EVERYTHING that he has told me... he has led me to back-up, to a "second witness," even now. I until my faith was built up to the point where I no longer NEED a second witness, I would go looking for it. I no longer NEED to do that. He says it; I believe him. That is what "faith" IS, dear DJ. Noah heard... and believed. Moses heard... and believed. Abraham heard... and believed. NONE of them had to go see if someone else had heard it or knew about it, too! They heard... and then spoke/acted on what they heard. And the thing HEARD... is from Christ... by means of holy spirit.
    You hold many jw teachings, don't you?

    Nope, so far, only one. Only one for it is the ONLY one they have correct: my Father... is not a triune god. Other than that, ALL of their teachings... are false (that Matthew was written in Aramaic is not a "teaching", but a fact). But it was on the basis of the truth of this one, that God is not triune, that they were able to get a foothold into the Body of Christ... and begin to mislead "even the chosen ones".

    Just as you still claim to be a member of the 144,000 from the tribe on Benjamin...

    Would you rather me lie? Hide from you who and what I am? Truly, DJ... how can you wish me to denounce what has been revealed to me by holy spirit? Do you think me ashamed of such spirit and ashamed of my Lord? Do you think I cringe because others will ridicule me and call me mad or whatever? I spoke the truth. To say otherwise would be false... and would, therefore, amount to me trying to "save" my soul... from the persecutions of men. But my Lord warned me of such (Matthew 5:11). That you and others speak as you do only strengthens my resolve to CONTINUE putting faith in what I hear, for truly, what can earthling man do to me? My Lord, however, can be "ashamed" of me before my Father, were I to be "ashamed" of him... before men. I spoke the truth, dear one... whether you hear... or refrain.

    you hold to many false teachings of the wt.

    I "hold" to NONE of their teachings, but only what I receive from my Lord. Of those, they are in agreement with one. Only one. And I "hold" to that which I do because I have only ONE "leader," the Son of God, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, which Son I bear witness to... to YOU... and all others... by means of the spirit that Son put in me... holy spirit.

    As always, my peace remains.
    YOUR servant and a slave of Christ,
    SJ
  • hooberus
    hooberus

    The real authority for AGuest is not the scriptures (which she has numerous ways of getting around when her theology disagrees with them), but the "spirit creature" that claims to be "Christ" which speaks to her.

    I have heard of "Christ" appearing to Mormons and telling them that the Mormon Church is "true" also.

    Until AGuest is willing to accept the scriptures as authority over her "spirit creature" she will continue to believe this "creature" even when it directly contradicts the scriptures.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    You hold many jw teachings, don't you?
    AGuest said: Nope, so far, only one. Only one for it is the ONLY one they have correct: my Father... is not a triune god. Other than that, ALL of their teachings... are false (that Matthew was written in Aramaic is not a "teaching", but a fact). But it was on the basis of the truth of this one, that God is not triune, that they were able to get a foothold into the Body of Christ... and begin to mislead "even the chosen ones".

    If this is the ONLY one that they have correct then why do you believe their other teaching (which must be false since you said "Other than that, ALL of their teachings . . . are false") that the body that Jesus showed Thomas was "a body" with wound holes, and not the body that was nailed to the tree?

    "But since the apostle Thomas was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus' side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p. 144-145

    "Had he not shown them a body with piercings, they would not have believed it him. Why? Because for those who lack faith, as did Thomas, et al., SEEING... is believing. But it is not those who see who will be counted "happy." It is those who do NOT see... those who HEAR... who will be." AGuest

    http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/51024/1.ashx

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    "But since the apostle Thomas was able to put his hand into the hole in Jesus' side, does that not show that Jesus was raised from the dead in the same body that was nailed to the stake? No, for Jesus simply materialized or took on a fleshly body, as angels had done in the past. In order to convince Thomas of who He was, He used a body with wound holes." You Can Live Forever in Paradise on Earth p. 144-145

    Well, okay... based on that, I guess I would have to say two "teachings," although truly, I did not know their position on this matter. I am known to err, for I am earthling man, flesh, in whom no one is to put their trust. Thus, I never looked it up (and don't remember reading this), but simply "heard" and related what I heard, because by the time I heard this, I no longer needed to "test" the inspired expression: I already knew the voice (John 10:27).

    Were I not to err/sin with my tongue, then I would be "perfect" and thus make Christ a liar. But I am not perfect, but instead, a "good-for-nothing" slave. In that light, I would also have to correct my previous statement that they have NOTHING "right," for that is not true: they have some things right... as do all "religion." That's how they are able to mislead: Satan transforms himself into an angel... of "light."

    However, dear Hooberus... one of us, is now in a dangerous position: to say that what IS from the spirit is NOT... is blasphemy. To say what is NOT from the spirit IS... is "false prophesy." Both are quite serious. I have no problem standing by what I've stated... and from whom I heard it. Which is why I am VERY careful to give all glory and credit to that One... in that which he tells me to speak... and refrain from doing so, when it is my own "thoughts" that I share. Whereas you give your glory and credit to a book, the contents of which are not entirely reliable, no matter what the version.

    In all things, it is the Christ that I tell folks about and it is to HIM that I invite them to come. And NO one can say, "JahEshua is Lord, EXCEPT by holy spirit." Thus, I am preaching Christ... and no MAN... or RELIGION... as "a release" or as a "shepherd" to the sheep. There is only ONE whom we must follow.

    Now, I do not know to whom or what YOU intend to direct folks, and if it the one who is named "Jesus," it does not matter to me. Inaccurate as that name is, it is one by whom many know him. However, it is the not the name by which he is known to me, nor I to him. And so, I stand by what I have heard and received... as well as whom I hear and receive such from. Whether YOU choose to hear... or refrain. You have "tested" my inspired expressions; I have "tested" yours. Both leave questions. Yet, I do not take any glory for myself... for it does not belong to me, but to the One appointed by God to receive it.

    In that light, I would like to respond to your assertions that:

    The real authority for AGuest is not the scriptures

    Which is completely true, as my AUTHORITY is the Christ.

    (which she has numerous ways of getting around when her theology disagrees with them),

    Which statement is completely false and based solely on our disagreement regarding what kind of body my Lord has. I must say, too, that I find it “curious” that you accuse me of NOT having the “scriptures” as my “authority,” at the same time that you completely disregard Paul’s words regarding just what “type” OF body is raised up. (1 Corinthians 15:35, 42-44). All of a sudden, the “scriptures” – as you believe them to be – have no credence. Yet, YOU referred to other’s words about things Paul wrote being “hard to understand.” I would watch this hypocrisy, dear Hooberus.

    but the "spirit creature" that claims to be "Christ" which speaks to her.

    One thing my Lord told me quite early on: while ANYONE can say that they are "chosen" or "anointed"... "a christ"... NO ONE... except the Son... can say that he/she is THE Christ, the Son of JAH. True, Satan can transform himself into an ANGEL of light... but he cannot transform himself into that Light. And you are not the only one who has called my Lord ‘Beelzebub,’…

    I have heard of "Christ" appearing to Mormons and telling them that the Mormon Church is "true" also.

    I'm sorry, but I don't believe I have heard of this LDS teaching. I thought that, according to their beliefs, God spoke by means of prophets, including a Prophet Lehi, who led an ancient civilization to America, and at some point, an angel (named Nephi?) appeared to Joseph Smith.

    It was my understanding that an angel appeared to Joseph Smith,

    Yes, an angel. My Lord is NOT an angel (he is a son), and i t is not an angel who speaks to me. Well, that’s not entirely true: I have had the privilege of meeting Michael, three times. But he appeared, he said, because I wanted to know what HE looked like and had asked. And so, just like the Father sent the Son, because I had asked, the Son sent Michael, on my request - John 15:7

    Until AGuest is willing to accept the scriptures as authority over her "spirit creature" she will continue to believe this "creature" even when it directly contradicts the scriptures.

    I will never accept that the scriptures are authority over my Lord, for these (the scriptures) are the very ones that bear witness about HIM. If, though, the Lord that I preach, the Son of the Most Holy One of Israel, JAHESHUA MISCHAJAH, is, in your eyes, "false", I exhort you to think seriously about your position. Because by the spirit that is in me, I must now say to you that such a position… is, in fact, blasphemous.

    My peace, if you are still of a mind... and heart... to accept it… remains. If not, then may it return to me, just as my Lord stated.

    A slave of Christ,

    SJ

  • DJ
    DJ

    Aguest,

    In essence I suppose that you no longer feel the need to test the inpired utterances as the bible teaches us to do. I have no ill will toward you Shelby. I wish you all happiness in this life and the next. I just do not agree with some of your beliefs. I also do not think that is has been delared "fact" that the NT was writen is Hebrew/Aramaic. There is no proof of this as of yet. Perhaps someday, if the Lord wills....we will find those ancient writings, then we can call it a "fact". I do not agree that Jesus does not answer to the name "Jesus". I don't think that He only speaks Hebrew/Aramaic and desires that His name only be spoken in Hebrew. Those kinds of false teachings are very upsetting to some who call Him Jesus. What we have been given by God is the NT in the Greek language not Aramaic. My God would not give me Greek and demand Hebrew from me. dj

  • hooberus
    hooberus

    AGuest said: One thing my Lord told me quite early on: while ANYONE can say that they are "chosen" or "anointed"... "a christ"... NO ONE... except the Son... can say that he/she is THE Christ, the Son of JAH. True, Satan can transform himself into an ANGEL of light... but he cannot transform himself into that Light. And you are not the only one who has called my Lord ‘Beelzebub,’…

    I have never called your spirit creature 'Beelzebub'

    I have pointed out that I believe that you have "another Jesus" that the Apostle Paul warned about in 2 Corinthians 11:4.

  • hooberus
    hooberus
    AGuest said: Which statement is completely false and based solely on our disagreement regarding what kind of body my Lord has. I must say, too, that I find it “curious” that you accuse me of NOT having the “scriptures” as my “authority,” at the same time that you completely disregard Paul’s words regarding just what “type” OF body is raised up. (1 Corinthians 15:35, 42-44). All of a sudden, the “scriptures” – as you believe them to be – have no credence. Yet, YOU referred to other’s words about things Paul wrote being “hard to understand.” I would watch this hypocrisy, dear Hooberus.

    1 Corinthians 15:35, 42-44 is not directly talking about the body of Jesus, but about the resurrection of man in general (though there are parallels).

    The passage that I have referred to is directly talking about the resurection of the body of Jesus. The fact that his original body was rasied is important. It fulfilled the prophecy Jesus said in John 2:22. John Chapter 2 shows that the same body that was destroyed was to be raised. The word "this" is in the present tense, hense the same body that he had before the crucifixion was to be raised. the reason Jesus' resurrected body had wound holes because it was the body that was pierced by the nails, not because it was "a body" which was newly created for the occasion (Something that you and the Watchtower calim).

    [18] Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things?
    [19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.
    [20] Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?
    [21] But he spake of the temple of his body.
    [22] When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

  • AGuest
    AGuest
    Aguest,

    Peace to you, dear DJ...

    In essence I suppose that you no longer feel the need to test the inpired utterances as the bible teaches us to do.

    "No longer," is correct. I have been taught by my Lord... and thus, have learned... to walk by faith. Now, it is no longer the law... written in delible ink... that teaches me, but the holy spirit. So that I do not need anyone BUT him to be teaching me. My eyes and ears have been opened, so that I see the "unseen" and hear my Lord's voice. Were I return to relying on the Bible... what need would I have then, of faith... the ASSURED expectation of the things hoped for, the EVIDENT DEMONSTRATION... of REALITIES... though NOT beheld"?

    I have no ill will toward you Shelby.

    Nor I, you, dear DJ.

    I wish you all happiness in this life and the next.

    And I, you.

    I just do not agree with some of your beliefs.

    But you are not required to, dear one. The only thing you are REQUIRED to do... is love me. Hopefully as I love you. If not, then know that I love you anyway... because I understand where you "are" - I've been there. I, too, at one time read, and read, and read... and checked, and checked and checked... and researched and researched and researched. I went YEARS without sleep to do so. Why? Because I kept hearing a voice... and I had to make SURE it was not "demons" or some "bad" spirit. I kept doing that... until my Lord asked me, "Why do you keep searching the scriptures? Is it not me whom you are seeking? Why not just come to ME and ask?" It was then that I realized FULLY, that HE was the Truth... that would set me "free." IF... I "exercised" faith... and followed HIM... wherever HE went. Even if that was somewhere I had never been before.

    John 8:32, 36

    I also do not think that is has been delared "fact" that the NT was writen is Hebrew/Aramaic.

    May I ask you, dear DJ... WHO would have to "declare" it for YOU to believe it? WHO would have to say it was true, in order for YOU to believe it to be true? For me, all it took was the TRUTH (John 14:6) saying it. And... I believed.

    There is no proof of this as of yet. Perhaps someday, if the Lord wills....we will find those ancient writings, then we can call it a "fact".

    And yet, for me, I don't need to see ancient writings to believe my Lord's word to me, any more than I NEED to see a body with holes to know that he has risen. He IS alive! I KNOW this... because I HEAR him... even when I can't SEE him.

    I do not agree that Jesus does not answer to the name "Jesus".

    Nor do I. And I invite you to go back and re-read EVERYTHING I have ever written to see if I ever even intimated such a thing. However, my Father was not known to Abraham by the same name as He was known to Moses. So that if you know my Lord by one name - the name I, too, used to know him by - and I another, what of it? My birth name is not "Shelby". But, I am known to YOU as "Shelby". If, then, I have one call me one thing, and another something else, what of it? If then, I have friends to whom I reveal my birth name... so that when speaking of me they use THAT name... one I did not give to YOU, what of it?

    I don't think that He only speaks Hebrew/Aramaic and desires that His name only be spoken in Hebrew.

    You may think whatever you wish, dear DJ, but please do not impute that I made such a claim. I call my Lord by the name he revealed to ME. You must call him by whatever name YOU know him by.

    Those kinds of false teachings are very upsetting to some who call Him Jesus.

    May I ask you why that is? And while you're thinking on that, may I also ask you, did it make a difference that my Lord chose Peter to go to Cornelius? Or Paul to the nations? Did it make a difference that he showed John the Revelation... and not James? Or are you... and the "some"... like Peter who was so worried about my Lord's relationship with John that he even presumed to ask about it?

    What we have been given by God is the NT in the Greek language not Aramaic.

    You err, dear DJ. What we have been given by GOD... is from the Son... and is written in neither the OT or the NT... but on the HEART. And in that light, the language... is of no importance.

    My God would not give me Greek and demand Hebrew from me.

    My goodness, DJ... neither would mine! Where would be the LOVE in that?! No, what he DID... was first TEACH me... slowly... sometimes one word at a time. He didn't reveal his name to me immediately - there was no "Poof! My name is" such and so!" First, he let me get to KNOW him... to learn to HEAR him and TRUST in him. THEN... he began to reveal things to me. My Lord, dear one, there were things that I "could not bear" yet, too!

    Anyway... my love and wish for peace remains. I hope that you will get over your... frustration and know that I bear you no illwill. I only spoke the truth... which is what you should demand of me... and everyone else.

    Your servant and a slave of Christ,

    SJ

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