by BoogerMan 167 Replies latest watchtower bible
It would appear that aqwsed 12345 does not agree with you pushing the barrow on 587 BCE
It hardly matters. My assessment of the sources is factually robust, and I’m aware of the fallacious appeal to tradition that leads some to cling to the incorrect year.
Scholar:
Please provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BCE for the Fall of Jerusalem.
So much has already been provided. You can provide God from heaven to tell you that it's not true and you would spit in God's face and call God a liar. Why?
Because you are going to believe this, even after the Governing Body does away with 607 BCE, which they are about to, just watch.
And then, where will you be? They did away with the 1914 generation.
They just released a new Watchtower just days ago with a section that reads: "We Do Not Know When the End Will Come." (WT June 2024, Par 4) This is something that they never would have published or said a few years ago...
Stephen Lett was just saying how "undoubtedly" they knew it was the "final part of the last days"...
https://youtu.be/jxumOIX1Rew?si=5mqTpxk6gzpZvwGt
Get ready...You won't have your precious 607 BCE or 1914 anymore in just a short while.
It will all be gone.
Get ready to belong to a religion of "we don't know."
In fact, officially, "you don't know" anymore...just like Christendom.
So keep at it for as long as you can. Enjoy it for now. It's about to be taken away. Get ready for new light of believing in "we don't know"!
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You wasted all this time!
Get ready...You won't have your precious 607 BCE or 1914 anymore in just a short while.
They already don't have it, that's why Scholar won't/can't answer this:
[w02 11/1 - In 1914 the prophetic words of Revelation 11:15 were fulfilled: The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” ]
[w51 7/15 - At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’]
Did the 7th trumpet/3rd woe occur in Oct 1914 or in April 1918?
Did the 1,260 days/2nd woe occur in April 1911-Oct 1914 or Oct 1914-April 1918?
Or are the 42 months/2nd woe the future GT and the 3rd woe comes after those months when Jesus comes with God's kingdom, ending the kingdom of this world (Satan's)?
KalebOutWest
So much has already been provided. You can provide God from heaven to tell you that it's not true and you would spit in God's face and call God a liar. Why?
- I have made the challenge to all critics of 607 BCE as the date for the Fall of Jerusalem sofar you have not been able to provide ONE line of evidence that would disprove 607 BCE
scholar JW
Duran
hey already don't have it, that's why Scholar won't/can't answer this:
Scholar always responds but will not respond to nonsense. Can you provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BCE?
scholar JW
Jeffro
It hardly matters. My assessment of the sources is factually robust, and I’m aware of the fallacious appeal to tradition that leads some to cling to the incorrect year.
--
It matters to aqwsed12345.Seeing that the sources are robust could you then provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BE?
scholar JW
Get ready to belong to a religion of "we don't know."In fact, officially, "you don't know" anymore...just like Christendom.So keep at it for as long as you can. Enjoy it for now. It's about to be taken away. Get ready for new light of believing in "we don't know"!Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! You wasted all this time!
Whatever your belief system you have to admit “we don’t know”
A lot of us are now PIMA also called JW lite.
If you have the humility to be agnostic then it is not wasting time. You could say anything other than being agnostic is wasting time.
That is the beauty of JW lite. Being PIMA you can be agnostic to everything. This is not arrogance this is humility.
Are you beginning to see the difference between PIMA and your approach where you decide what is definitely true or not?
Get ready to belong to a religion of "we don't know."
Yes this is great, this is humility. I stay for the enjoyment of going to meetings and spending time with my friends. You don’t understand how much things have changed recently. Yes JWs used to smoke and celebrate Christmas but things change. All the things you talk about have got better now. I think things will continue to improve and the new GB will say “we don’t know” more and more.
Whatever your belief system you choose be happy in yourself that maybe it is wrong and you may well change in the future, this new one may be wrong as well but you have to realise this, then finally reach contentment. That’s exactly what JW lite is 😀
@scholar
Claim 1: "Scholarly uncertainty about 605 or 609 BCE invalidates the secular chronology"
You claim that because some scholars debate whether the 70 years began in 605 or 609 BCE, secular chronology is uncertain. This is a serious misunderstanding of the nature of historical chronology. Scholarly debates about minor details (such as whether the start date for Babylon's dominance is precisely 609 BCE after the battle of Harran, or 605 BCE after Carchemish) reflect healthy scholarly inquiry into specific events. Such small variances are common in ancient history and are measured in just a few years. However, no reputable historian places Jerusalem's destruction outside of the clearly established range of 586/587 BCE because multiple independent lines of evidence (Babylonian Chronicles, astronomical texts, archaeological layers, and Persian, Greek, and Egyptian records) converge powerfully upon this date. The JW position (607 BCE) demands a full 20-year distortion, not a minor scholarly debate of 3 or 4 years. Such a large distortion is historically impossible given the wealth of independent evidence.
Claim 2: "Jeremiah 25:11 and 29:10 refer only to Judah’s exile."
You state Jeremiah’s prophecy relates exclusively to Judah and its exile.Jeremiah explicitly includes multiple nations ("these nations") serving Babylon for 70 years (Jer 25:11), indicating Babylonian regional dominance, not exclusively Judah’s exile or land desolation. Jeremiah 29:10 explicitly says after Babylon's 70-year domination ends, Judah would return. Historical records show Babylon fell precisely in 539 BCE, Cyrus issued the decree in 538 BCE (historically verified by the Cyrus Cylinder), and the Jews returned shortly thereafter—not arbitrarily delayed until 537 BCE as your chronology imposes without evidence. The JW interpretation artificially isolates Judah, ignoring biblical wording and historical evidence.
Claim 3: "Babylon’s judgment (Jer. 25:12) began after the Jews returned in 537 BCE."
You assert Babylon’s judgment began only after the Jews returned in 537 BCE. Jeremiah 25:12 explicitly states Babylon’s punishment would begin "when seventy years are completed." Babylon lost its political sovereignty precisely in 539 BCE with Cyrus's conquest, marking the exact end of Babylon’s dominance as prophesied. Your argument confuses Babylon’s political judgment (539 BCE) with later physical desolation over centuries. Jeremiah’s prophecy refers directly to political overthrow, fulfilled immediately upon Babylon's fall in 539 BCE, confirmed historically and biblically.
Claim 4: "Josephus, archaeology, astronomy indirectly support 607 BCE."
You argue Josephus, archaeology, and astronomy support JW chronology indirectly.
Your assertion that recent research validates 607 BCE astronomically is categorically false. No professional astronomical or archaeological research supports 607 BCE.
Claim 5: "Nebuchadnezzar’s 'missing years' and madness."
You question Nebuchadnezzar’s reign continuity, asking rhetorically about his alleged "missing years." Babylonian historical and administrative records show continuous documentation through Nebuchadnezzar’s entire 43-year reign (605–562 BCE). Daniel 4 describes a temporary period of incapacity, but never loss of the throne or administrative discontinuity. No historical record suggests a vacancy in Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. Your claim of "missing years" is completely invented, unsupported by any ancient source, and directly contradicted by continuous contemporary Babylonian texts.
Claim 6: "Carl Olof Jonsson ignored the Exile in his GTR."
You demand proof that Carl Olof Jonsson addresses Judah’s exile. Jonsson's Gentile Times Reconsidered (GTR) explicitly and extensively analyzes the exile as integral to the 70-year prophecy. He demonstrates conclusively the exile's compatibility with the historically verified Babylonian domination period (609–539 BCE). Your claim that Jonsson "ignored exile" reveals you either haven’t carefully read Jonsson’s thorough scholarship or deliberately misrepresent his detailed discussion of exile and desolation.
Claim 7: "Counting back from 537 BCE yields exactly 607 BCE."
You repeat the claim that counting back 70 years from a supposed 537 BCE return yields 607 BCE exactly. The Bible and historical records explicitly date Babylon’s fall to 539 BCE, Cyrus's decree in 538 BCE, and return shortly thereafter. There's no historical reason to artificially delay two years to 537 BCE. Counting back exactly 70 years from the historically confirmed decree of Cyrus in 538 BCE clearly places the beginning of Babylon’s supremacy around 609 BCE, precisely matching Nabopolassar’s final defeat of Assyria at Harran, not 607 BCE. Your arbitrary insertion of an unsupported two-year delay is purely doctrinal, not historical or biblical.
Claim 8: "Jeremiah’s multiple deportations prove a 70-year exile."
You claim Jeremiah’s multiple deportations (597, 586, 582 BCE) confirm your 70-year exile. Jeremiah’s multiple deportations explicitly contradict the JW claim of total desolation from exactly 607 BCE onward. Clearly, the land was inhabited and not entirely desolate after 607 BCE. These deportations confirm precisely the historically accepted scholarly scenario: a prolonged Babylonian subjugation culminating in Jerusalem’s destruction in 586/587 BCE, not total immediate desolation in 607 BCE.
Claim 9: "609 BCE is an arbitrary modern interpolation."
You claim scholars arbitrarily "invented" 609 BCE. The date 609 BCE is explicitly documented in multiple independent ancient Babylonian Chronicles (ABC3, ABC4, ABC5). Assyria’s defeat, Egyptian interventions, and Nabopolassar’s campaigns against Harran are clearly dated historically and archaeologically. No modern interpolation occurred. Your claim of "arbitrariness" ignores the historical evidence from the Babylonian Chronicles.
Claim 10: "607 BCE and JW's Gentile Times withstand scholarly criticism."
You claim JW chronology is validated by modern scholarship and history. No reputable historian, archaeologist, or astronomer supports the JW chronology (607 BCE). JW chronology has been repeatedly and comprehensively disproven by overwhelming evidence from Babylonian, Persian, Egyptian, and astronomical sources. The date 1914 CE, dependent solely on your false 607 BCE date, therefore collapses entirely, exposed as historically untenable.
Your Final Challenge: "Provide ONE line of evidence disproving 607 BCE."
Answer to Your Challenge:
Here is ONE definitive line of evidence:
Conclusion:
Your arguments consistently rely upon selective quotations, misrepresentation, outdated assertions, invented scenarios, and disregard for established historical, archaeological, and astronomical facts.
The scholarly consensus, supported by multiple independent lines of evidence, remains irrefutably that Jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 BCE, not 607 BCE.
Your challenge for "one line of evidence" has been conclusively answered: VAT 4956 alone disproves your chronology decisively and unambiguously. Your repeated assertions are thus thoroughly and conclusively refuted.
‘scholar’:
Seeing that the sources are robust could you then provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BE?
Whenever ‘scholar’ plays this tedious game after already having been given mountains of evidence, it always reminds me of the “What have the Roman’s ever done for us?” scene from Life of Brian.
Scholar always responds but will not respond to nonsense. Can you provide ONE line of evidence that disproves 607 BCE?
Scholar you are so foolish. What I want you to respond about the 42 months/6th trumpet and 7th trumpet/1914, is the whole basis the WTS tries to use the year 607. Talking about the 6th and 7th trumpet does disprove 607 and all that is calculated from that date.
[rs - Revelation 11:2, 3 clearly states that 42 months (3 1/2 years) in that prophecy are counted as 1,260 days. Seven years would be twice that, or 2,520 days. Applying the “day for a year” rule would result in 2,520 years. When did the counting of the “seven times” begin? After Zedekiah, the last king in the typical Kingdom of God, was removed from the throne in Jerusalem by the Babylonians. (Ezek. 21:25-27) Finally, by early October of 607 B.C.E. the last vestige of Jewish sovereignty was gone.]
CALCULATING THE “SEVEN TIMES”
“Seven times” = 7 X 360 = 2,520 years
A Biblical “time,” or year = 12 X 30 days = 360. (Rev. 11:2, 3; 12:6, 14)
In the fulfillment of the “seven times” each day equals one year. (Ezek. 4:6; Num. 14:34)
Early October, 607 B.C.E., to December 31, 607 B.C.E.= 1/4 year
January 1, 606 B.C.E., to December 31, 1 B.C.E. = 606 years
January 1, 1 C.E., to December 31, 1913 = 1,913 years
January 1, 1914, to early October, 1914 = 3/4 year
Total: 2,520 years
__________________
If you believe all that, fine, but the problem is they say the 2,520 years end in 1914, but in the 51WT they claim in 1918 is when the 7th trumpet was blown, after the 42 months. So, they are short by 4 years. Seems they have to start from 611 B.C.E. to make 2,524 years to arrive at 1918, therefore showing 607 to be the wrong year to start from.
[w51 7/15 - At this eventful time the seventh angel blows his trumpet, that is, after the 1,260 days ended in 1918. Then it is that these wonders can come to pass. “And the seventh angel blew his trumpet. And loud voices occurred in heaven saying: ‘The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king for ever and ever.’]
If everyone here that says 587, agreed with you on 607, you still would have to use 611 to arrive at 1918, because 607 is 4 years short.
____________
If you stick with 607 to arrive at 1914 and say that that is when the 7th trumpet was blown as the 02WT claims, then you still have to deal with the 42 months, being that the 7th trumpet blows AFTER the 42 months as the 51WT says.
[w02 11/1 - In 1914 the prophetic words of Revelation 11:15 were fulfilled: The seventh angel blew his trumpet. And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: “The kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.” ]
So again, I ask you:
Did the 7th trumpet/3rd woe occur in Oct 1914 as the 02WT claims or in April 1918 as the 51WT claims?
Did the 1,260 days/2nd woe occur in April 1911-Oct 1914 for the 7th trumpet to blow in 1914 or Oct 1914-April 1918 for the 7th trumpet to blow in 1918?
