Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!

by BoogerMan 150 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    Scholar:

    The Gentile Times timeline of Jehovah's Witnesses (or whatever you wish to call it) is not based on the book of Revelation which is written in Koine Greek, but on Daniel chapter 4, which is written in Aramaic.

    The word "times" in Daniel 4 is derived from the Aramaic word "iddan" (עִדָּן), which appears only in the book of Daniel. The word is understood to refer to years because in the chapter it affected 7 literal years of Nebuchadnezzar.

    The word for “time” and “times” in those verses in Revelation is the Greek word “chronos” χρόνος which does not mean “year” but “time” as in a “period of time” or “time in general” as in “time spent.” It never refers to a year.

    The Koine Greek word for "year" is ἔτος (étos), an entirely different word--which you would know if you were truly a “scholar,” right? “Chronos” χρόνος (time) and “étos” ἔτος (year) are totally different words.

    Last year, for example, Jehovah’s Witnesses observed the Memorial in the month of Adar II…on the 14th of Adar II to be exact. The reason why? They forgot it was a leap year. That is why it was so cold last year in the Northern Hemisphere on March 24, 2024. You cannot determine agricultural Spring by when Easter is determined, which is how Passover is actual settled (the Watchtower has been determining the Memorial by means of the Full Moon closest to the Spring Equinox, the formula set by Pope Gregory in 1582--look it up…it’s actually called the “Ecclesiastical Full Moon”).

    Is there a Bible verse that defines “prophetic years”? No. There is not. There is no such thing.

    But there is such a thing as a Jewish year and it is NOT 360 days. If you count 2,520 Jewish years, and you are going to count “a day for a year,” not every year is going to have the same amount of days because of Jewish leap years.

    You know this is true. What I am writing is not made up. Jewish leap years exist--they always have.

    So yes, go ahead, start from 607 BCE…You are still more than 900 years off. Jesus has not year returned invisibly by this account.

    You still have nothing.

  • KalebOutWest
    KalebOutWest

    I was going to write an added point but I changed my mind.

    Scholar should keep believing what Scholar wants. I hope he knows I enjoy watching him/her.

    I don't believe anything Scholar says except that Scholar cannot control themselves. They have JW/religious OCD, and cannot help but keep writing.

    They think that that they are making a difference...Or Scholar wants us to think we think they cannot have doubt in their beliefs.

    Scholar, enjoy your beliefs. I don't believe in them, but your believing in them is fine with me. It doesn't bother me. They are not real to me. I know what is real. You are a bit insulting, but you cannot help it. Your religion teaching you to be that way.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    You have made this claim before, but if this is correct, does your analysis of 586 or 587 BCE mirror COJ's thesis? If not, could you list or explain where you differ?

    I haven’t closely considered COJ’s work. Which is kind of the point. I read some of his book online in 2015. I’m not aware that he makes any specific argument of 587 BCE over 586 BCE, and whether he has is unrelated to the logical sequence of premises I have laid out at https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/2022/11/17/586-or-587/.

    But because you are a dishonest coward, you will continue to ignore the content and just prattle on with the same old empty drivel that you’ve done for years.

  • scholar
    scholar

    KalebOutWest

    Is there a Bible verse that defines “prophetic years”? No. There is not. There is no such thing.

    --

    A prophetic year is described in the Bible and I refer you to its usage in Rev. 11: 2,3: 12:6, 14; and Ezek.4: 5 Dan.12:11; FOR its equivalent 'times'.

    Refer to Biblical Calenders, J.Van Goudoever, 1959, p.75.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    A prophetic year is described in the Bible and I refer you to its usage in Rev. 11: 2,3: 12:6, 14; and Ezek.4: 5 Dan.12:11; FOR its equivalent 'times'.

    Meh. A ChatGPT response is more than he deserves… (but see also https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/index/pure-worship-ezekiel-revisited/#390Days).

    The claim asserts that a “prophetic year” is described in the Bible and references several verses to support this concept. Let’s assess the validity of this claim by examining the context of these passages.


    1. Revelation 11:2-3 & 12:6, 14

    Revelation 11:2-3: These verses mention 42 months and 1,260 days as equivalent time periods.

    Revelation 12:6, 14: Verse 6 states that the woman fled for 1,260 days, while verse 14 describes the same event as “a time, times, and half a time” (often interpreted as 3.5 years).


    Since 42 months = 1,260 days, and 1,260 days = 3.5 years, this suggests a year in this context is assumed to be 360 days long (1,260 ÷ 3.5 = 360), often referred to as a “prophetic year.”


    2. Ezekiel 4:5

    This verse is part of Ezekiel’s symbolic action, where God tells him to lie on his side for 390 days to represent the years of Israel’s sin.

    Ezekiel 4:6 explicitly establishes a day-for-a-year principle: “I have appointed thee each day for a year.”


    However, this does not explicitly define a prophetic year of 360 days. Instead, it establishes a symbolic equation where a day represents a year in certain prophetic contexts.


    3. Daniel 12:11

    This verse refers to 1,290 days, which is slightly longer than the 1,260-day period.

    It is not directly equated to “times” in this passage, so it does not directly support the claim that a “prophetic year” is described as 360 days long.


    Assessment of the Claim

    The 360-day prophetic year concept does have some biblical basis, particularly in Revelation 11-12, where 1,260 days and 42 months align with 3.5 years.

    Ezekiel 4:5-6 establishes a day-for-a-year principle but does not explicitly define a prophetic year’s length.

    Daniel 12:11 introduces a different time period (1,290 days) that does not fit neatly into the 360-day prophetic year model.


    Conclusion


    The claim that a “prophetic year” is explicitly described in the Bible is partially supported by some verses in Revelation, which use a 360-day year. However, Ezekiel 4:5 and Daniel 12:11 do not directly support this concept. The claim is overstated in suggesting that all the cited verses consistently define a prophetic year.


  • scholar
    scholar

    Jeffro

    I haven’t closely considered COJ’s work. Which is kind of the point. I read some of his book online in 2015. I’m not aware that he makes any specific argument of 587 BCE over 586 BCE, and whether he has is unrelated to the logical sequence of premises I have laid out

    ---

    COJ makes only an indirect reference to the 586/587 controversy through a footnote.

    --

    But because you are a dishonest coward, you will continue to ignore the content and just prattle on with the same old empty drivel that you’ve done for years.

    --

    Why not try to update the scholarship but the scholar's 'old empty drivel' over many years has always gets your attention.

    scholar JW

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    ‘scholar’:

    COJ makes only an indirect reference to the 586/587 controversy through a footnote.

    haha. He finally admits that he lied about my analysis of 586/587 BCE being copied from COJ. Now go and actually read the words instead of just gawking at the ‘pretty charts’. https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/2022/11/17/586-or-587/

  • Vidqun
    Vidqun

    Not sure about the "prophetic year" concept, but working exclusively on Biblical data, there is a clear correspondence between Daniel's calender and that of John in Revelation. Both followed a solar calender of 360 days + 4 intercalary times (i.e., the equinoxes and solstices) that were added between seasons, but not counted in the reckoning of the days of the year:

    Aramaic year: ע דִָּן (JArm., Syr., Heb. מוֹעֵד ) Da 7:25, Sept. ἔτο῍ Da 4:16.32.34, Josephus Antiquities xii 7: 6 :: Vulgate tempus/tempora, so also Sept. καιρό῍καιροί 7:25 12:7; שִׁבְעָה עִדָּניִן Da 4:13.20.22.29, וּפְלגַ עִדָּן7:25 עַד עִדָּן ועְִדָּניִן meaning three and a half years (Bentzen 34, 67; Plöger KAT xviii: 105; see also 115f, 143). † See HALOT.

    Hebrew year: מֹעֲדִיםוָחֵצִילְם׳ :מוֹעֵד a time, times and a half Da 12:7 (as BArm. 2 ע דִָּן, meaning a year). See HALOT.

    The expr. καιρὸν καὶ καιροὺς κ. ἥμισυ καιροῦ also belongs to the eschatol. vocab.; it means the apocalyptic time of 1 + 2 + ½ = 3½ years. See BDAG. καιρόν καί καιρούς καί ἥμισυ καιροῦ, a year and two years and six months (A. V. a time, and times, and half a time; cf. Winer’s Grammar, sec. 27, 4), Rev. 12:14 (cf. 6; from Dan. 7:25; 12:7). See Thayer.

    Gabriele Boccaccini, in the article “The Solar Calendars of Daniel and Enoch,” suggests that the writer of Daniel used a solar calendar, consisting of a thirty-day month x 12 = 360 day year + 4 intercalary times (i.e., the equinoxes and solstices) that were added between seasons but not counted in the reckoning of the days of the year. See The Book of Daniel: Composition and Reception. Volume 2. Edited by J. J. Collins and P. W. Flint, Brill, 2001, pp. 312-328.

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Vidqun:

    Not sure about the "prophetic year" concept, but working exclusively on Biblical data, there is a clear correspondence between Daniel's calender and that of John in Revelation.

    360 is a convenient shorthand for the length of a year as 360 has 24 factors, and is evenly divisible by 10 of the first 12 positive integers. Revelation borrows from Daniel and Ezekiel, so it’s nothing remarkable that it uses that trope. The rounding of the length of a year to 360 days is ultimately taken from Babylonian usage.

  • aqwsed12345
    aqwsed12345

    Here is a detailed and thorough refutation of the arguments presented by "scholar" for the 607 BCE chronology, demonstrating why the arguments fail historically, biblically, and logically:

    Detailed Refutation of the JW Arguments for 607 BCE

    1. Alleged Lack of Scholarly Consensus and the 609 BCE Starting Point

    "Did you know scholars also date the 70 years from 605 BCE, not 609 BCE? There is no consensus."

    It is misleading to argue a lack of consensus to justify 607 BCE. Scholars differ between 609 BCE (final Assyrian defeat at Harran) and 605 BCE (Babylonian victory at Carchemish) as the start of Babylon's 70-year period of supremacy precisely because both dates have historical significance. However, no credible scholars propose 607 BCE for Jerusalem's destruction. All reputable secular historians agree on 586/587 BCE. The uncertainty over 609 vs. 605 BCE does not support 607 BCE, as the JW argument incorrectly assumes.

    The scholarly dispute concerns when Babylon's dominance began, not when Jerusalem was destroyed, which is securely dated to 586/587 BCE by overwhelming historical and archaeological evidence.

    2. Interpretation of Jeremiah 25:11 and Babylon’s Supremacy

    "Jer. 25:11 does not emphasize Babylon's supremacy, only Judah’s servitude and desolation for exactly 70 years."

    The text of Jeremiah 25:11 explicitly states:

    "This whole land shall become a ruin and a waste, and these nations shall serve the king of Babylon seventy years."

    The context clearly indicates a period of regional Babylonian dominance, not exclusively a 70-year desolation or exile of Judah. Notice the explicit mention of "these nations" (plural), which includes Judah but is not limited to it. Thus, Jeremiah's 70 years encompass Babylon’s political and military dominance, aligning historically from approximately 609 BCE (or 605 BCE) to Babylon’s fall in 539 BCE.

    Jeremiah 29:10 supports this: the 70 years conclude when Babylon's rule ends, allowing Judah’s return—not after the return itself (537 BCE), but upon Babylon’s fall (539 BCE). Ezra and Daniel also understood the 70 years in terms of Babylon's dominance ending with its fall, not two years afterward.

    3. Misinterpretation of Jeremiah 25:12 and the Timing of Babylon’s Judgment

    "Jeremiah 25:12 clearly states judgment against Babylon commenced only after the 70 years ended, thus it cannot be 539 BCE but must be 537 BCE."

    This interpretation misreads the sequence of events. Jeremiah 25:12 says explicitly:

    "Then after seventy years are completed, I will punish the king of Babylon."

    Historically, Babylon was punished exactly at its fall in 539 BCE by Cyrus the Great, as confirmed by numerous historical records. There is no delay or "two-year gap" in Scripture or history. Babylon lost sovereignty precisely at its conquest in 539 BCE, directly fulfilling Jeremiah's prophecy. The JW assertion that Babylon’s punishment must begin in 537 BCE is entirely artificial, unsupported historically and biblically.

    4. Alleged Historical, Archaeological, and Astronomical Support for 607 BCE

    "Historically and theologically, 607 BCE is the only possible date. Josephus, archaeology, and astronomy confirm this."

    Refutation:

    • Josephus: Josephus explicitly confirms Jerusalem’s destruction occurred in Nebuchadnezzar’s 18th regnal year, corresponding historically to 586/587 BCE. Josephus never supports 607 BCE. JW misuse of Josephus selectively distorts his clear statements (e.g., Antiquities X.7.1).
    • Archaeology: Extensive archaeological excavations in Jerusalem universally confirm the destruction layers dating precisely to 586/587 BCE. No archaeological evidence supports 607 BCE.
    • Astronomy: Astronomical diary VAT 4956 precisely confirms Nebuchadnezzar’s 37th year as 568/567 BCE, proving the destruction of Jerusalem occurred in 586/587 BCE (his 18th year). The JW attempts to redate VAT 4956 to 588 BCE are incorrect and discredited by independent astronomers.

    5. Nebuchadnezzar’s Seven-Year Madness and Chronological Gap

    "Nebuchadnezzar’s seven-year madness creates a chronological gap."

    Nebuchadnezzar's seven-year illness in Daniel 4 is nowhere described as creating a gap in Babylonian history. Babylonian administrative texts from this period show continuous governance, clearly disproving any interruption in Nebuchadnezzar’s reign. The JW insertion of a seven-year gap is a completely unsubstantiated and artificial attempt to justify their chronological misalignment.

    6. Misrepresentation of Carl Olof Jonsson’s (COJ) Work

    "COJ barely mentions the 70-year exile, ignoring its reality."

    Carl Olof Jonsson extensively discusses the 70-year period, analyzing all relevant biblical texts (Jeremiah 25, 29, Daniel 9, Ezra 1, 2 Chronicles 36). He convincingly demonstrates that the 70 years were Babylon’s dominance, not Judah’s specific exile. The JW assertions grossly misrepresent Jonsson’s thorough and careful scholarship.

    7. Claims of 607–537 BCE Exile and Return

    "607–537 BCE perfectly fits the exile and return dates."

    The biblical and historical record explicitly refutes this claim. Cyrus issued his decree to release the Jews in 538 BCE, historically attested by the Cyrus Cylinder. Most scholars agree the actual return occurred by 537 BCE. Counting back exactly 70 years aligns with Babylon’s dominance (609/605–539 BCE), not 607 BCE. The JW timeline artificially compresses historical events and misdates key events, such as Nebuchadnezzar's reign, contrary to overwhelming external evidence.

    8. Jeremiah 52:28-30 – Further Deportations After 607 BCE

    "Jeremiah 52:30 mentions a deportation in Nebuchadnezzar’s 23rd year (602 BCE), showing the land wasn't desolate since 607 BCE."

    This inadvertently disproves the JWs' own claim. Jeremiah 52 clearly refers to deportations after the initial 597 BCE exile. If Jerusalem had been destroyed and made completely desolate in 607 BCE, no further deportations could have occurred years later. This passage instead confirms the multiple-stage exile and contradicts a singular 607 BCE destruction.

    9. Alleged "Interpolation" of the 609 BCE Date in Babylonian Chronicles

    "The Babylonian Chronicle BM 21901 doesn't contain 609 BCE; this is a scholarly interpolation."

    This claim shows misunderstanding or misrepresentation. The Babylonian Chronicles (especially ABC3 and ABC4) clearly document Nabopolassar’s decisive victory over Assyria at Harran (609 BCE), firmly establishing this date historically. No interpolation is involved; rather, clear Babylonian historical records support this date explicitly.

    10. Calculating the "Gentile Times" and the "2520 Years"

    "The Gentile Times calculation using 360-day prophetic years (7x360=2520) proves the 607–1914 chronology."

    The JW "Gentile Times" prophecy depends entirely on 607 BCE, which has been comprehensively disproven historically, astronomically, archaeologically, and biblically. Even accepting symbolic "prophetic years," the foundational 607 BCE date is factually invalid. Without 607 BCE, the entire 1914 prophetic calculation collapses.

    Conclusion

    The JW argument for a 607 BCE date for Jerusalem’s destruction fails at every level of scrutiny:

    • It misreads Jeremiah’s prophecy.
    • It contradicts explicit historical and astronomical evidence.
    • It distorts scholarly research and misrepresents reputable historians.
    • It artificially inserts chronological gaps without evidence.
    • It selectively quotes and misrepresents historical sources like Josephus and Babylonian Chronicles.

    The scholarly consensus—backed by a convergence of biblical, historical, archaeological, and astronomical evidence—is clear: Jerusalem fell in 586/587 BCE, and Babylonian supremacy (the 70 years) lasted from approximately 609 BCE to 539 BCE.

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