Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!

by BoogerMan 147 Replies latest watchtower bible

scholar

Duran
What about according to John and your beloved WTS...
[w85 10/1 - In Bible history, five major empires flourished, oppressed God’s people, and then fell before John’s day: Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. When John was alive, the Roman empire was in power. Centuries after John’s death, the Roman empire passed from the scene as the dominant world power and was eventually replaced by the British empire. Soon this empire’s western colonies gained independence and came to act closely with Britain to form the Anglo-American world power. This is the “king” that had “not yet arrived” in John’s day. What was the relationship between the beast that John saw and the seven empires represented by its heads? “It is also itself an eighth king, but springs from the seven.” Revelation 17:9-11]
1 Egypt, 2 Assyria, 3 Babylon, 4 Medo-Persia, 5 Greece, 6 Rome, 7 Anglo-American, 8 UN
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As I previously stated the First World Power according to Dan. 2 was Babylon.
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Regardless, Babylon's time as a world power ended in 539 when it was defeated by Medo-Persia. That being the case and sense it was said that the nations had to serve Babylon 70 years, then the 70th year ended in 539 and thereby started in 609.
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False. Babylon's time as a World Power ended with its overthrow in 539 BCE by the Medo-Persian Empire. However, the 70 years of Jewish Exile and servitude to Babylon did not end until 537 BCE when Cyrus released the Jewish captives.
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[12 “‘But when 70 years have been fulfilled, I will call to account the king of Babylon and that nation for their error,’ declares Jehovah,]
Here is what your beloved WTS says:
[w81 8/1 -The idol-worshiping Babylonians now were in line for God’s judgment to be executed upon them. That happened in 539 B.C.E. when Babylon was overthrown by the Medes and the Persians.]
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You only quote the first part of verse 12 and omit the rest of the verse which shows that this prophecy against Babylon referred to the city-king-land which all took place after the Fall of Babylon in 539 BCE as such events began after 70 years fulfilled in 537 BCE with the release of the Exiles.
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The 70 years had to be fulfilled first in order for Jehovah to call to account/execute judgment on Babylon. The WTS state that judgment/calling to account happened in 539, therefore the 70 years did not end in 537, otherwise Jehovah would have been calling Babylon to account/executing judgment on them in the 68th year of those 70 years. He would be jumping ahead by 2 years of his own appointed time to act when those 70 years had been fulfilled.
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Correct. Simply put Babylon had to fall - 539 BCE before the 70 years ended in 537 BCE. The 70 years represented three things- servitude to Babylon, exile in Babylon and the land of Judah was desolate. The 70 years pertained to Judah, its people, city and temple as foretold by the prophets. Thus can only be interpreted as a historic period beginning in 607 BCE through to 537 BCE.
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Do you believe your GB in their saying that Jehovah executed judgment/called to account Babylon in 539 by them being conquered by Medo-Persia?
Do you believe Jehovah through Jeremiah that 70 years had to be fulfilled first before he would call Babylon to account?
Do you think Jehovah called Babylon to account in the 68th year of those 70 years?
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Yes Yes yes
scholar JW
Duran

As I previously stated the First World Power according to Dan. 2 was Babylon.
The statement made by me was:
Babylon was the 3rd world power during that 70-year period and then in 539 the Medes and Persians became the 4th world power.
To which you replied:
Incorrect for according to Daniel the first World Power was Babylon followed by Medo-Persia.
I showed you what John said about there being 8 kings and I showed you the WTS says about all 8 world powers.
Daniel addresses the said kings, but he focusses starting from the 3rd king Babylon down to the 8th king.
Do you disagree that Egypt and Assyria were each world powers prior to Babylon?
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Babylon's time as a World Power ended with its overthrow in 539 BCE by the Medo-Persian Empire.
Yes! Very good scholar, you are making progress with such statement.
So, knowing that Babylon ceased being the world power in 539 and that Medo-Persian became the world power at that time when Babylon was overthrown, the question is when did Babylon become the world power?
The answer is after Assiya was overthrown. Assiya was the world power before Babylon and all nations were under subjection to Assiya, including Babylon. Then with the overthrow of Assiya, Babylon became the world power, and ALL nations were in subjection to Babylon until it was overthrown by Medo-Persian in 539.
Jeremiah 25:11,12 speaks to this period for Babylon and the nations, stating that ALL nations would have to serve Babylon 70 years, and when THOSE 70 years were fulfilled, Babylon would then come to its end, which we know it did in 539 when Medo-Persian overthrew them.
Serving Babylon had nothing to do with being taken captive there. All nations served Babylon by being under subjection to them, during the time it was a world power. (609-539) Having to be killed or taken captive to Babylon was only based on refusing to serve.
[ 11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years]
[ 6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of my servant King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon; even the wild beasts of the field I have given him to serve him. 7 All the nations will serve him and his son and his grandson until the time for his own land comes, 8If any nation or kingdom refuses to serve King Neb·u·chad·nezʹzar of Babylon and refuses to put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, I will punish that nation with the sword, with famine, and with pestilence,’ declares Jehovah, ‘until I have finished them off by his hand.’9 Therefore, do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your magicians, and your sorcerers, who are saying to you: “You will not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they are prophesying lies to you, so that you will be taken far away from your land and I will disperse you and you will perish.11 But the nation that brings its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serves him, I will allow to remain on its land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘to cultivate it and dwell in it.]
[12 And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation,’ is the utterance of Jehovah, ‘their error, even against the land of the Chal·deʹans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.]
scholar

Duran
Do you disagree that Egypt and Assyria were each world powers prior to Babylon?
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No I do not. The Apostle John discusses the world powers different to that of Daniel.
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Yes! Very good scholar, you are making progress with such statement.
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The said scholar is now very happy.
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The answer is after Assiya was overthrown. Assiya was the world power before Babylon and all nations were under subjection to Assiya, including Babylon. Then with the overthrow of Assiya, Babylon became the world power, and ALL nations were in subjection to Babylon until it was overthrown by Medo-Persian in 539.
- True from the viewpoint of secular history, But from Daniel's viewpoint, Babylon was the first world power with its overthrow of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. From this time nations were now subject to Babylon in accordance with Jer. 25:11.now having served Babylon for 70 years along with Judah.
scholar JW
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Duran

True from the viewpoint of secular history, But from Daniel's viewpoint, Babylon was the first world power with its overthrow of Jerusalem in 607 BCE. From this time nations were now subject to Babylon in accordance with Jer. 25:11.now having served Babylon for 70 years along with Judah.
Like you have for years on here, your reasoning is moronic, you love to parrot the WTS false teachings, and you ignore Scriptures like Jeremiah 27:6-11.
Even if you want to claim that destruction came on Jerusalem in 607 (even thou it happened in 587), the serving of Babylon for the nations started before any such destruction came upon Jerusalem. And even if you want to claim the Jews came back in 537, there is no reason to conclude that the 70 years for the rest of the nations ended in 607.
The fact is that no nations including the Jews did not serve Babylon after 539 being that it came to its end at that time.
Jeffro

Poor old 'scholar' is still at it. 🤣
Anyway... notice these contradictory claims in the abysmal attempt to defend their 607 BCE nonsense in October/November 2011...
The Watchtower, 1 October 2011, page 29:
why do many authorities hold to the date 587 B.C.E.? They lean on two sources of information—the writings of classical historians and the canon of Ptolemy.
But in the second article in the series, they admit that modern historians instead actually rely on contemporary business records that establish the Neo-Babylonian chronology.
The Watchtower, 1 November 2011, page 22:
However, most scholars date the destruction of Jerusalem at 587 B.C.E. This allows for only a 50-year exile. Why do they conclude that? They base their calculations on ancient cuneiform documents that provide details about Nebuchadnezzar II and his successors.1 Many of these documents were written by men who lived during or close to the time of Jerusalem’s destruction.
Worst of all, the November article scored an own-goal by requiring that the solstice of 588 BCE occurred on a date that is physically impossible. 🤦‍♂️ Luckily for the Watch Tower Society, most JWs lack the critical skills required to identify the problem.
For a review of the 2011 attempt, see
https://jeffro77.wordpress.com/watchtowers-2011-attempt/.
Jeffro

'scholar':
Babylon's time as a World Power ended with its overthrow in 539 BCE by the Medo-Persian Empire. However, the 70 years of Jewish Exile and servitude to Babylon did not end until 537 BCE when Cyrus released the Jewish captives.
In the poor addled mind of 'scholar' (and other JW cronies), the Jews arrived in Judea, marking the end of 70 years. But the problem (actually one of a great number of problems), is that directly contradicts Jeremiah 29:10. They make a big deal about their faulty translation saying "at Babylon" in the first half of the verse, but quietly ignore the second part of the same verse. In the JW interpretation, the Jews arrive in Judea, and then attention is given to their return. Once they're already there. It's as dumb as it sounds.
jhine

Does it actually make any difference to the price off eggs who conquered who first 2.5 thousand years ago?
Jan from Tam
jhine

Of eggs 🙄.
Jan from Tam
Jeffro

If you’re concerned about egg prices, you’re in the wrong thread.
Vidqun

Scholar, no matter how you shake or shout, 607 BCE for the destruction of Jerusalem is an impossibility, a Watchtower 'pie in the sky.' Only Daniel (and Josephus) would confirm such a period, which turns out to be a scribal error. The following is how history would unfold during said period, i.e., according to the Scriptures:
Seventy years of servitude which includes five deportations:
Judahite kings over that period: Jehoikim (11 years: 608 – 597 BCE) > Jehoichin (3 months) > Zedekiah (11 years: 597 - 587/586 BCE)

8 Therefore this is what Jehovah of armies has said, For the reason that YOU did not obey my words,
9 here I am sending and I will take all the families of the north, is the utterance of Jehovah, even [sending] to Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon, my servant, and I will bring them against this land and against its inhabitants and against all these nations round about; and I will devote them to destruction and make them an object of astonishment and something to whistle at and places devastated to time indefinite.
11 And all this land must become a devastated place, an object of astonishment, and these nations will have to serve the king of Babylon seventy years.
12 And it must occur that when seventy years have been fulfilled I shall call to account against the king of Babylon and against that nation, is the utterance of Jehovah, their error, even against the land of the Chaldeans, and I will make it desolate wastes to time indefinite.
13 And I will bring in upon that land all my words that I have spoken against it, even all that is written in this book that Jeremiah has prophesied against all the nations. (Jer. 25:8, 9, 11-13)

For this is what Jehovah has said, In accord with the fulfilling of seventy years at Babylon [for Babylon, CSB, ESV, CSBO, NABO] I shall turn my attention to YOU people, and I will establish toward YOU my good word in bringing YOU back to this place. (Jer. 29:10 NW)

In the third year of the kingship of Jehoiakim the king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon came to Jerusalem and proceeded to lay siege to it. (Dan. 1:1)

This is what occurred as the word of Jehovah to Jeremiah the prophet concerning the nations,
2 For Egypt, concerning the military force of Pharaoh Necho the king of Egypt, who happened to be by the river Euphrates at Carchemish, whom Nebuchadrezzar the king of Babylon defeated in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah, the king of Judah (Jer. 46:1, 2)

27 And these the king of Babylon proceeded to strike down and to put them to death in Riblah in the land of Hamath. Thus Judah went into exile from off its soil.
28 These are the people whom Nebuchadrezzar took into exile, in the seventh year, three thousand and twenty-three Judahites.
29 In the eighteenth year of Nebuchadrezzar, from Jerusalem there were eight hundred and thirty-two souls.
30 In the twenty-third year of Nebuchadrezzar, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard took Judahites into exile, seven hundred and forty-five souls. All the souls were four thousand and six hundred. (Jer. 52:27-30)

12 And in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, that is, [in] the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadrezzar, the king of Babylon, Nebuzaradan the chief of the bodyguard, who was standing before the king of Babylon, came into Jerusalem.
13 And he proceeded to burn the house of Jehovah and the house of the king and all the houses of Jerusalem; and every great house he burned with fire. (Jer. 52:12, 13)

So the angel of Jehovah answered and said, O Jehovah of armies, how long will you yourself not show mercy to Jerusalem and to the cities of Judah, whom you have denounced these seventy years? (Zech. 1:12)

20 Furthermore, he carried off those remaining from the sword captive to Babylon, and they came to be servants to him and his sons until the royalty of Persia began to reign;
21 to fulfill Jehovah's word by the mouth of Jeremiah, until the land had paid off its sabbaths. All the days of lying desolated it kept sabbath, to fulfill seventy years. (2 Chr. 36:20, 21)

Insight Book LIES - then tells the TRUTH!

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