Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

• 

  Halcon

  Sanchy- Yahweh directly murdered children. If Yahweh exists, then he is evil, as per his own moral definition. I would want nothing to do with such an evil entity.

  And he certainly gives you that choice.
• 

  Anony Mous

  @SB: Gary Habernas' minimal facts are relatively easy to disprove. First you must agree that Jesus existed "as described" which many people don't. But even if you kind of say, sure there may have been a character like Jesus, you have to contend with these criticisms:

• Jesus died by crucifixion

  • While crucifixion is widely attested, some scholars (e.g., John Dominic Crossan) argue that we cannot be completely certain of the details due to the limited (almost non-existent) historical record.
  • The earliest Christian writings (e.g., Paul in 1 Corinthians 15) do not describe the mechanics of Jesus’ death in detail.
  • Some theories (e.g., the swoon hypothesis) suggest Jesus may not have died but instead survived in a critically wounded state.

• The disciples had experiences they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus

  • Psychological phenomena like hallucinations or mass delusions could explain these experiences.
  • Cognitive dissonance reduction suggests the disciples reinterpreted their expectations after Jesus’ death, leading to visionary experiences.
  • Other religious movements have similar claims of post-mortem appearances (e.g., Marian apparitions), but these do not necessarily prove an actual resurrection.

• The disciples were transformed and willing to suffer and die for their belief

  • Many religious movements have members willing to die for a cause (e.g., Islamic martyrs, Heaven’s Gate). Sincerity does not equal truth.
  • Evidence of specific disciples' martyrdom is weak. For example, Peter’s crucifixion is based on late traditions, not contemporary sources.
  • Social and psychological pressures could have reinforced their commitment despite initial doubts.

• Paul, a skeptic and persecutor, converted after an experience he believed was of the risen Jesus

  • Paul’s experience as described could be explained as a medical event, such as an epileptic seizure
  • Religious conversions often happen without necessitating a supernatural cause (e.g., Muhammad’s revelation or Joseph Smith’s visions).
  • Paul never met Jesus and only describes his experience in vague terms (Galatians 1:16).

• James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, converted after an experience of the risen Jesus

  • The evidence for James’ skepticism before Jesus’ death is weak and primarily based on Gospel accounts, which were written with theological agendas.
  • Family members of religious leaders often become followers after the leader's death (e.g., successors in Islamic or Buddhist traditions).

• The tomb was found empty

  • The earliest sources (Paul’s letters) do not mention an empty tomb—only later Gospel accounts do, which may have been legendary developments.
  • Alternative explanations include grave robbery, relocation of the body, or mistaken tomb identification.
  • Some scholars argue that Jesus was likely buried in a mass grave, making the empty tomb story unlikely.






As to your other statements, I've previously rebutted them:

• "Matter produces information"

  • Information is not a property of matter itself but a description of arrangements and patterns within matter. In physics and computer science, information is defined as a measure of order or complexity, but it requires an observer or a system capable of interpretation. DNA contains encoded information, but the process of mutation, selection, and environmental pressures influence its structure. Without an interpreting system, raw matter does not inherently "produce" information.

• "Order comes from Chaos"

  • In thermodynamics, entropy (disorder) tends to increase in an isolated system, but order can emerge in local subsystems due to energy input and natural laws. For example, in statistical mechanics, self-organizing structures like hurricanes, crystal formation, or biological organization arise through deterministic processes. Chaos theory also shows that complex ordered patterns can emerge from chaotic systems (e.g., fractals, turbulence, planetary orbits).

• "Life comes from non-life"

  • While abiogenesis is not fully understood, evidence suggests that organic molecules necessary for life can form through natural chemical processes. The Miller-Urey experiment showed that amino acids (life’s building blocks) can arise from simple chemicals under early Earth-like conditions. RNA-world hypotheses suggest that self-replicating molecules could have formed from prebiotic chemistry, leading to early cellular life through natural selection.

• "Personal comes from Non-Personal"

  • Consciousness is studied as an emergent property of neural complexity. Neuroscientific research supports that self-awareness, emotions, and decision-making arise from interactions among neurons and biochemical processes in the brain. Models of emergent complexity suggest that personality and agency result from layers of cognitive functions rather than requiring an external personal agent.

• "Morality comes from Nothing"

  • Morality is widely studied in evolutionary biology and psychology as a product of social and survival mechanisms. Studies in primates, early human societies, and evolutionary game theory suggest that moral behaviors like cooperation, fairness, and reciprocity arise due to natural selection favoring group survival. Morality is not derived from "nothing" but from social contracts, evolutionary pressures, and cognitive processes.

• "Reason comes from Non-reason"

  • Cognitive science and evolutionary biology suggest that rational thought evolved as an adaptive trait. Early organisms developed simple problem-solving and predictive abilities, which became more sophisticated through natural selection. Neural networks, trial-and-error learning, and reinforcement mechanisms led to the development of logic, abstraction, and critical thinking. While the initial cognitive processes may not have been "reasoned" in the human sense, they laid the foundation for rational faculties.

  Note that a lot of the things you describe as coming from 'nothing' naturally emerge in relatively (compared to nature) simple reinforcement learning algorithms which you can run on your computer 'today'. This is an area of study (what lay people currently consider to be "AI") which I've been involved with 15+ years now, but this has been well known for decades. Emergent behavior in substructures is really interesting and truly comes from natural selection of random distributions.