Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Halcon: that God is capable of both punishment and salvation.

    That sounds suspiciously like a personal (human) interpretation. The verse states that god creates evil. It seems more straightforward to read it as god being responsible for evil.

    Halcon: The fact that he creates opposites seems to equate to God being confused to you.

    Another interesting interpretation, but that is not what I said. When god acts in opposition to what he states, this is what implies that he is confused or wicked.

    Halcon: We know at least what his word tells us.

    A word that has been constantly interpreted and reinterpreted for almost two thousand years? Are you sure we know what his word tells us?

    Halcon: In the mind of many he simply cannot be someone who incites both fear and love, and so they reject him.

    A being who is unpredictable and not held back by any recognized moral standards cannot inspire love, only fear. And one is obligated to reject a being who cannot exist as described.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    The verse states that god creates evil. It seems more straightforward to read it as god being responsible for evil.

    For God to be God, He must be omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient. Otherwise you are referring to a different God.

    You forget that God is not obligated to same any of us, because of our sin. Of course God creates evil for his enemies. God pretty much had a hands off approach unless evil people thried to overthrow or interfere with his plan for salvation.

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze

    @AnyMous

    Jesus died by crucifixion

    Some theories (e.g., the swoon hypothesis) suggest Jesus may not have died but instead survived in a critically wounded state.

    That doesn't seem plausible since he was severely whipped, hung on a cross, had a spear thrust in his side, and yet appeared to hundreds of people only a few days later with no apparent sign of streets from the abuse.

    The disciples had experiences they believed were appearances of the risen Jesus

    Psychological phenomena like hallucinations or mass delusions could explain these experiences.

    Hard to image who hundreds of people could have a hallucination about interacting with the risen Jesus over a several month period, in different places. Especially, when people touched him and his healed wounds.

    The disciples were transformed and willing to suffer and die for their belief

    Many religious movements have members willing to die for a cause (e.g., Islamic martyrs, Heaven’s Gate). Sincerity does not equal truth.

    But, that is not what we are dealing with here. You are asking us to believe that the apostles (and other eye-witnesses) were willing to die for a cause they KNEW to be a hoax. That ain't going to ever happen. People are willing to die for things they believe to be true, but would they all be willing to die for something they know to be a lie? I don't think so.


    Paul, a skeptic and persecutor, converted after an experience he believed was of the risen Jesus

    Paul’s experience as described could be explained as a medical event, such as an epileptic seizure

    But, this is not what he said is it. He said that Jesus blinded, told him the things he was going to suffer for him him. His eyesight was restored and he immediately switched sides, going from a persecuter to a defender of Cbrist.

    You are asking us to believe all this happened from an epileptic seizure? I'm not seeing how that is remotely possible.

    "Personal comes from Non-Personal"

    Consciousness is studied as an emergent property of neural complexity. Neuroscientific research supports that self-awareness, emotions, and decision-making arise from interactions among neurons and biochemical processes in the brain. Models of emergent complexity suggest that personality and agency result from layers of cognitive functions rather than requiring an external personal agent.

    What are you talking about? Has a personality ever resulted from any known process other than reproduction? No. It is ludicrous to suggest otherwise. In otherwords, a miracle.

    "Morality comes from Nothing"

    Morality is widely studied in evolutionary biology and psychology as a product of social and survival mechanisms. Studies in primates, early human societies, and evolutionary game theory suggest that moral behaviors like cooperation, fairness, and reciprocity arise due to natural selection favoring group survival. Morality is not derived from "nothing" but from social contracts, evolutionary pressures, and cognitive processes.

    That description is incompatible with data. Even the most remote tribes who have been cut off from the rest of civilization observe a moral code similar to everyone else’s. Although differences certainly exist in civil matters, virtues like bravery and loyalty and vices like greed, theft and cowardice are universal. If man were responsible for that code, it would differ as much as every other thing that man has invented. Animals have no problem with theft, greed etc.

    Not buying it.

    "Reason comes from Non-reason"

    Cognitive science and evolutionary biology suggest that rational thought evolved as an adaptive trait. Early organisms developed simple problem-solving and predictive abilities, which became more sophisticated through natural selection. Neural networks, trial-and-error learning, and reinforcement mechanisms led to the development of logic, abstraction, and critical thinking. While the initial cognitive processes may not have been "reasoned" in the human sense, they laid the foundation for rational faculties.

    You or anyone else can suggest all they want to. But it won't change the fact that if your arbitrariness was true, then the principles of logic or reason would vary by circumstance. But, that is not the way reason works is it? No, reason and logic are stable regardless, of location, people group, or circumstance.

    Dr. Jason Lisle explains how good reasoning and "right" thinking is supposed to work:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_LAFmAkqYhA&ab_channel=TheChurchatPecanCreek%2CByPastorTreyTalley

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Tonus-That sounds suspiciously like a personal (human) interpretation.

    Are you sure?

    Deuteronomy 30:19- "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses."

    He can't be any more clear that he is responsible for both.

    It seems more straightforward to read it as god being responsible for evil.

    What would you call death and curses?

    But don't ignore that he also creates life and blessings. And in case we get confused about what we should choose (because he knows we are dust after all) this is how he finishes the same verse 19-

    "Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Sea Breeze: For God to be God, He must be omnibenevolent, omnipotent, and omniscient.

    You previously linked to a definition of god as omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. You are adding omnibenevolent now. The problem with that term is that it is pretty easy to show that Yahweh is not omnibenevolent. Thus, he cannot be god.

    Halcon: He can't be any more clear that he is responsible for both.

    So, we are agreed that he is responsible for evil? For death? For curses? And thus, for suffering?

    Halcon: But don't ignore that he also creates life and blessings.

    I do not ignore that this god is capable of good. But he is also capable of evil. And he is not bound by human standards of behavior. This is the being you believe you will spend an eternity with. Tell me, how do you know he won't evenutally condemn everyone to suffering?

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    So, we are agreed that he is responsible for evil? For death? For curses? And thus, for suffering?

    Yes, from the very first page of this thread.

    Tell me, how do you know he won't evenutally condemn everyone to suffering?

    We don't, just like we also don't know that he will.

    It's good question to consider tho. It reveals just how powerless we are next to God.

    "Also, he has put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end." -Ecclesiastes 3:11

  • Sea Breeze
    Sea Breeze
    The problem with that term (omnibenevelent) is that it is pretty easy to show that Yahweh is not omnibenevolent.

    @ TonusOH

    Sure he is. Your next breath is a sign of his benevelence.

  • Duran
    Duran
    Your next breath is a sign of his benevelence.

    benevolence - the quality of being well meaning; kindness.

    Vatican: Pope Francis is suffering from double pneumonia

    (suffering from a pneumonia)

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    Sea Breeze: Your next breath is a sign of his benevelence.

    OMNIbenevolent. ALL good. If god only did things that we categorize as good, the term would apply. But he doesn't. The Bible has plenty of stories of things he did that we would not categorize as good.

    Halcon: It's good question to consider tho. It reveals just how powerless we are next to God.

    I must say, you have been presenting an understanding of god that is unlike that of just about every other Christian I've known. Very interesting and even insightful, if incomplete.

  • Anony Mous
    Anony Mous

    @AnyMous

    That doesn't seem plausible since he was severely whipped, hung on a cross, had a spear thrust in his side, and yet appeared to hundreds of people only a few days later with no apparent sign of streets from the abuse.

    Interesting twisting of scripture there. According to some of the gospels (depending on which one you read) Thomas touched his wounds. People survive pretty serious car accidents, are they all deities? I'm just saying it is 1 hypothesis. Note none of the synoptic gospels mention a spear being thrusted in Jesus' side. So you can take the minimalist agreed upon punishment between the gospels for the hypothesis to have a chance.

    Hard to image who hundreds of people could have a hallucination about interacting with the risen Jesus over a several month period, in different places. Especially, when people touched him and his healed wounds.

    First of all, you must prove he was risen and not simply a guy that survived a crucifixion, which Josephus, someone you like to quote often as 'proof' that Jesus was divine based on a proven falsification of his record, wrote about seeing at least 3 'failed' executions and resurrections. The scriptures themselves state that the crucifixion was hurried while contemporary records state such crucifixions often took 3 days. There is even a guy that has gone through the whole crucifixion thing 30 times in his life (Ruben Enaje). According to the gospels, Jesus only appeared to a small group of people, the large group claim is much later by Paul who himself admits he wasn't there and has been noteworthy in scriptural analysis to be less than reliable.

    But, that is not what we are dealing with here. You are asking us to believe that the apostles (and other eye-witnesses) were willing to die for a cause they KNEW to be a hoax.

    Most of the apostles apparently died of old age. Only James died by Herod. Persecution of Christians doesn't start until 69AD and is very much localized to Rome itself (find a local Jewish minority to shove some blame on), it's not until 200 years after Christ supposedly lived that more wide ranged persecutions happened.

    That ain't going to ever happen. People are willing to die for things they believe to be true, but would they all be willing to die for something they know to be a lie? I don't think so.

    How many JW's died in concentration camps and on the issues of blood transfusion?

    But, this is not what he said is it.

    Yeah, because some backwater first century religious zealot knew what epilepsy was. Paul was a great sales guy. Do you believe everything the GB says about "Andre". We know for a fact some of the things Paul experienced were ripped off straight from The Bacchae a 400BC Greek tragedy.

    - Pentheus does not believe in Dionysus (a deity who has also lots of similarities to Jesus FYI) and wants to eliminate the Dionysus cult that just arrived.
    - Pentheus is described breathing out rage (Paul is described breathing threats and murder)
    - Pentheus has an unexpected epiphany.
    - Pentheus hears a voice that says, "kick against the goads" (literally, the same words in Greek, that phrase appears only 4 times in all known ancient Greek literature, all in parallel tragedies and the NT)
    - Pentheus becomes a believer of Dionysus

    What are you talking about? Has a personality ever resulted from any known process other than reproduction? No. It is ludicrous to suggest otherwise. In otherwords, a miracle.

    Yes, people assign personality to various AI these days, people assign personality to characters in video games or books. You don't seem to understand the words I'm saying, personality has nothing to do with consciousness.

    That description is incompatible with data. Even the most remote tribes who have been cut off from the rest of civilization observe a moral code similar to everyone else’s. Although differences certainly exist in civil matters, virtues like bravery and loyalty and vices like greed, theft and cowardice are universal. If man were responsible for that code, it would differ as much as every other thing that man has invented. Animals have no problem with theft, greed etc.

    Bzzt, wrong. Animals have moral codes, even non-primates, dogs, horses, elephants, pigs, fish and birds do. Again, you do not understand the words I'm saying. Animals do have problems with greed and theft, their survival depends on it.

    You or anyone else can suggest all they want to. But it won't change the fact that if your arbitrariness was true, then the principles of logic or reason would vary by circumstance. But, that is not the way reason works is it? No, reason and logic are stable regardless, of location, people group, or circumstance.

    So how come me and you come to a different opinion about all of the above? By your own logic, we would all be simple automatons.

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