Just because Jehovah had to prove His Right To Rule? I don't think so!

by liam 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Halcon

  Moonanchu-Satan didn't challenge God to give mankind freedom to rule himself. He challenged God to let himself rule mankind. Satan is the ruler of the world, all kingdoms are under his power.

  This statement, if true, emphasizes the fact that human beings are even more at the mercy of spirit beings , like God and Satan.

  The question of why do we die usually gets a 'technical' answer, like the ones above. Regardless of whether they are correct or not, the question is prompted by a desire to keep living. If that desire is strong enough we will look beyond our limitations to try and obtain it, aka scientific advances and God. But the desire is the real trigger to that question.
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  StephaneLaliberte

  This thread makes it seem like the issue lies with Jehovah’s Witness teachings, but the real problem is actually the Bible and Christian beliefs.

  No matter how you explain it, the core idea boils down to this:

  God created humans with everlasting life. Humans sinned. As a result—due to principles established by God—humans now suffer and die. And not just those who originally sinned, but every generation afterward, for thousands of years. Today, billions of people continue to suffer and die.

  If we step back and look at the big picture: billions of humans have endured suffering for thousands of years. By comparison, historical figures judged as monsters—like Genghis Khan and Hitler—caused significantly less harm in scope and scale. And yet, in their time, they had their reasons, their justifications, and millions of people agreed with them. Even so, history has rightly condemned them as monsters.

  Yet, when it comes to God allowing human suffering and death, this same fundamental evaluation is often ignored.

  Some will argue: "He's not directly hurting or killing people, He’s just allowing it to happen." To that I say: If you have the power to stop something and choose not to, you are just as responsible as if you had done it yourself.

  As for: "It a consequence of humans rejecting him in the first place!" As far as I can see, among those who suffer, billions have devoted their lives to God, praying, obeying, and following His commandments as best they could based on information available to them. Yet He still lets them suffer. If suffering is a punishment, then what was their crime?
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  DesirousOfChange

  We get old because Jehovah had to prove to all the Angels that his way of ruling was the best? That's the sorriest argument the Watchtower has come up with. ~ Liam

  We get old and die because we are disconnected from God, the Source of all life, because of sin. . . Christ took the sins we committed onto Himself to pay the price for us. ~ Breeze

  And that's about the sorriest argument any man made religion has come up with. There is NO EVIDENCE to support any of it or to give reason to have faith in it. Credulity! *

  * Credulity means gullibility, or a willingness to believe anything. Credulity is a tendency to believe in things too easily and without evidence.

  Go live your dream instead of living in a fantasy.
• 

  Sea Breeze

  Yall are making this more complicated than it is. God desires the one thing that he cannot create, the one thing that identifies most with his dominate character - Love. That is the sole reason for our existence. And, you cannot force someone to love you.
  

  God's requirement for entry into his family is to be without sin. He is the creator and owns it all, so he gets to set the terms. For the sole purpose of creating the possibility of love, God took on flesh and died a horrible death vicariously for everyone who ever lived, everyone who wants it. Lots of people only want to enjoy all the cool stuff God made, kinda like a spoiled brat who doesn't want to work but just relax on Daddy's yacht. They like daddy's money, but don't really want him around cramping their lifestyle.
  
  God still gives them lots of good stuff while they enjoy everything he made.... mountians, oceans, forests, friends, children, puppies, art etc. When they inevitably die because of being separated from the sole Source of Life in the universe, he still grants them what they desire most, eternal freedom from himself.

  Those that allow God to supernaturally make them sinless, get to enjoy the most precious thing they could possibly imagine - the person, character, majesty and creative genius of God himself. For the believer, God is by far the greatest gift of all. When you get him, you get literally everything imaginable.
  
  In the end, everybody gets what they want. Why is this so difficult for people to understand?
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  moomanchu

  StephaneLaliberte

  God created humans with everlasting life. Sorry this is incorrect.

  22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might reach out with his hand, and take fruit also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the Garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove the man out; and at the east of the Garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.
• 

  Halcon

  Yet, when it comes to God allowing human suffering and death, this same fundamental evaluation is often ignored.

  Some will argue: "He's not directly hurting or killing people, He’s just allowing it to happen." To that I say: If you have the power to stop something and choose not to, you are just as responsible as if you had done it yourself.

  This argument is impossible to refute.

  As for: "It a consequence of humans rejecting him in the first place!" As far as I can see, among those who suffer, billions have devoted their lives to God, praying, obeying, and following His commandments as best they could based on information available to them. Yet He still lets them suffer. If suffering is a punishment, then what was their crime?

  The crime, according to God, is all humanity having been born of Adam. But to the devoted, their suffering is only temporary, per the scriptures.

  So it seems that we cannot escape the fact that God's hand is in fact intervening in both of your arguments. Which means that the issue is in fact the one found in the very beginning at the garden of Eden.

  The rules are God's. You either follow them and obtain salvation, or don't follow them and suffer eternal condemnation. Not everyone, it seems, can accept these rules.
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  moomanchu

  Jehovah said if you eat from the tree of knowledge the punishment is death. Somehow that deal got altered to include child birth pain, unfruitful land and children paying for the sins of their parents.

  I always think of Lando Calrissian complaining to Darth Vader "that was never part of the deal!" and Darth Vader replys "I am altering the deal, pray I don’t alter it farther."
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  Anony Mous

  I think the problem in (many) Christian religions is to attribute omnipotence to God, as if he has the capacity to solve the problem of evil and the second problem is an afterlife that is always good, regardless of your choices.

  The Jewish view and some Christians also believe that evil only exists within us (humans) and it is a choice we make and the stacking of evil things brings about misery for many. And there is only 1 life and you have to live it to the best of your abilities.

  Yes, that places "God" as an omnipotent self-absorbed bully outside of the realm of religion and puts God more as being the collective idea of what we consider to be good, which can only come in hindsight. I like this idea better that God exists in our history, but it evolved from within our societies and worshipping a god is living up to the ideals of that society. Hence why the Bible is really a mis-mash of various Gods with different personalities over the ages.
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  DesirousOfChange

  the issue is in fact the one found in the very beginning at the garden of Eden.

  FINALLY! Someone interjects something factual -- with solid evidence -- into the discussion.

  
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  StephaneLaliberte

  But to the devoted, their suffering is only temporary, per the scriptures.

  Temporary suffering is still suffering. It is still a serious punishment. Why inflict suffering at all when God has the power to prevent it entirely?

  Would you say that waterboarding isn't bad just because the pain stops once it's over? The person may not be dead or physically handicapped, but they still endure intense suffering. In fact, by that logic, one could argue that waterboarding is a loving way to extract information—since other forms of torture leave permanent scars or disabilities.

  But we all recognize that argument as absurd. Suffering is suffering, whether it is temporary or not.

  So my question remains: Why allow the just to suffer at all?