by liam 129 Replies latest watchtower beliefs
Kaleb doesn't exist either. He's just a name randomly picked out from a box mixed with AI responses cut and pasted at will.
He most certainly exists. He's engaged our thoughts and even our emotions. I've seen people get pretty wound up with Kaleb here 🙂, if that isn't real....
Halcon stated:
[God] is also loving, patient, peaceful, considerate, even compassionate according to Christ.
Actually Jesus never stated any of these things. Christianity often attributes such things to God, but Jesus never explicitly said any such things in any of the Gospels.
In fact, there is a Hebrewism that often counters the way Jewish teachers describe God as opposed to the way Christians do, as Jews often state what God is not, since Judaism teaches that God is Ineffable or impossible for the human experience to fully comprehend.
Christianity, on the other hand, believes that Jesus was God Incarnate, and thus via this experience is everything "God" to humanity. (Compare John 14:9) Thus Christians, not Jesus himself, thus explain God by defining what God "is."--For a perfect example of this, see 1 John 4:8 and 16.
One of the reasons we likely do not find explicit "God is" statements from Jesus in the Gospels is because Jesus was a Jewish rabbi. Many of his teachings came from valid sources like Moses and even Hillel. His teachings are extraordinary and powerful, but they are still very Jewish: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill"--Matthew 5:17.
In the article entitled Does God Have Attributes by Rabbi Jack Abramowitz, the teaching against reading the statements and descriptions of God in Scripture as literal and not metaphorical are discussed from the viewpoint of the great sage Maimonides (Rambam). He taught that when one reads these anthropomorphic descriptions of God and takes them as fact, one becomes an idol worshiper because one worships a human image no different than one made of stone, gold, wood, etc., even though this one is an image described in words. The descriptions of God in Scripture are meant to teach a lesson, not literally describe the Ineffable Eternal One:
One of the fundamental tenets of the Jewish faith is the unity of God. According to this principle, God is indivisible and He has no parts. To suggest that God has a number of attributes is to suggest that He has components, which is certainly not the case. We cannot accurately posit that "God is merciful" or "God is kind." In reality, the only equation that balances is "God is God." Accordingly, we must jettison the idea of attributes alongside that of corporeality.
So you, Halcon, are the one saying that "God is" this and that, not Jesus. You, yourself, made that up. That is well and good. If that is your truth.
Now you can do some fancy footwork, stringing up some Scriptures, like the Watchtower, saying that since Jesus said etc., etc., etc., (for example, Jesus may have illustrated God's love in one way or another, you might say or demonstrated compassion, or patience, and thus, you would argue, Jesus "said" that "God is..."), but it will still never equal an explicit statement.
In the end, however, this is not to state that God cannot be one or the other. If that is what you believe about God, go for it. I am just demonstrating that people of all kinds often make up statements about their deities in their arguments. "Jesus said this...Moses said this...Allah said this...The Flying Spaghetti Monster wants sauce..."
Actually Jesus never stated any of these things. Christianity often attributes such things to God, but Jesus never explicitly said any such things in any of the Gospels.
Are you sure Kaleb?
"He who has seen me has seen the Father"
Halcon, you obviously don't or can't or won't read what I write.
I made reference to that text in my post, stating that though it was NOT an explicit statement it was often the springboard where people like you develop and invent your "is" statements:
Christianity, on the other hand, believes that Jesus was God Incarnate, and thus via this experience is everything "God" to humanity. (Compare John 14:9)
John 14:9 does not outright state that God "is" this, that, or the other. Like other Jewish rabbis, Jesus did not tend to describe God in the sense of literal attributes. That came from the apostolic college and the Church Fathers.
You state that Jesus said those things or demonstrated this somehow...maybe via a sockpuppet show or experimental tribal dance? But he never said it outright like you did.
Sea Breeze: And, it is the premise behind this proposition that seems so puzzling to others.
The premise is literally "judge him by his actions." If this is puzzling, I daresay the issue is not with the premise.
Sea Breeze: when we are all using the same definition, your argument immediately falls apart.
Your definition is incomplete, in order to match your presuppositions about what your god is supposed to be. It is not my argument that falls apart, it is the view of god as being only the things you choose to allow, while ignoring the actions that contradict them.
Craig's approach is just a form of "mysterious ways." When god does something that appears wrong, or mistaken, or brutal, or wicked, Craig insists that there must be more to it than we can see on the surface. The problem with this is twofold: for one, many of these actions are pretty clear. Two, it means that we cannot claim to understand him at all, since even the good things he does might be misleading. It is, therefore, useless as an argument.
Halcon: Once again you didn't finish the list. He is also loving, patient, peaceful, considerate, even compassionate according to Christ.
The possibility that god might do something loving or kind does not worry us, for obvious reasons. The possibility that he is irrational, violent, and unpredictable should. Many abusive people are also capable of kindness and compassion. It is not those moments that worry their victims.
Kaleb -John 14:9 does not outright state that God "is" this, that, or the other. Like other Jewish rabbis, Jesus did not tend to describe God in the sense of literal attributes. That came from the apostolic college and the Church Fathers.
It's not necessary for us to 'reinvent the wheel.' Don't forget, Jesus specifically referenced the words of Isaiah at the synagogue. But fine, we'll stick to the old testament.
The possibility that he is irrational, violent, and unpredictable should. Many abusive people are also capable of kindness and compassion. It is not those moments that worry their victims.
You're confusing God with man again.
Halcon: You're confusing God with man again.
No, I'm not. I'm referring to Yahweh, and his actions, and what they tell us about him.
Tonus -Many abusive people are also capable of kindness and compassion.
You say you are not confusing God with man but this was your most recent statement above when explaining your thoughts on God.
Halcon: You say you are not confusing God with man but this was your most recent statement above when explaining your thoughts on God.
As I said, I am judging him by his actions and by his words. I don't see the issue here.
