Who raised Jesus from the dead? (page 10)

wozza

@Seabreeze I'm curious to know (as animals have been brought into the conversation) ,if you believe animals have a soul /spirit combined or both things ?

This comes back to the WTS argument with Nephesh ,Ruah etc argument spirit or soul and how are they properly defined in light of the Bible.

The animals live physically like us and eat,defecate, get sickness and old age and die like us.

Do you believe they have a spirit that leaves the body? Where do they go? To me I see them live and die like us, thats the physical evidence.

You bring up things like Terminal Lucidity ,so do they possibly experience the same? Sort of like the fox I saw squashed on the road ,it looked like it was dead but then suddenly raised it's head and made a silent movement of its jaw as if crying out. I guess it was like the man I found on a rainy night who hit the back of a car on his motorcycle , his face was crushed and he was dying and trying to cry out but his jaw was not attached anymore.

See we live and experience similar things in life ,but just because my brain is bigger how come i am supposed to have a spirit/soul that can leave and be saved as a spirit?

Blotty

Plenty of strawman arguments going on

- burden of proof lies on atheist's to disprove majority of scholars on Jesus never existing
the "never left any writings argument" is extremely weak
My great grandmother never left any writings (nothing for that matter) are you going to dispute she existed?
and writings don't really prove someone existed any how.. (know the purpose of the messiah before saying about what he should and should not of done.)
Different gospel writers place emphasis on different things - It is possible that there were 4 woman who discovered Jesus' tomb empty, however some only emphasizing 2 (still doesn't mean to say the other 2 didn't exist or were not present) John's account is the challenge, but depending on his writing time might have thought some points moot due to them possibly being so well know. Greek writers were well known not finish thoughts and omit details that were self explanatory.

- Trinity doesn't work due to Greek antecedents (Grammatical rules// see Wallace's paper)

Those who say Jesus did raise himself. not according to A.T Robertson

smiddy3

Physical / material / fleshly human body is an obvious indisputable known fact ,,,,

,,spiritual human body ? ? ?

I rest my case.

Jeffro

Blotty:

burden of proof lies on atheist's to disprove majority of scholars on Jesus never existing
the "never left any writings argument" is extremely weak

Is that meant to be satire? Whether Jesus existed isn’t relevant to atheism, so atheists obviously have no burden of proof to ‘disprove Jesus’ existence’. The broad scholarly consensus is that Jesus likely existed but was not magical (though this is usually dressed up with loaded words like ‘divine’, which doesn’t have any actual clear meaning) . Though some atheists might also hold a view that Jesus didn’t exist at all, that isn’t a majority view or one that is specific to atheism. It is entirely mundane that there may have been an itinerant rabbi in the first century who was executed by the Romans about whom stories were later embellished.

My great grandmother never left any writings (nothing for that matter) are you going to dispute she existed?

🤦‍♂️ That is an especially poor analogy since your great grandmother necessarily existed in order to have descendants. Are you suggesting Jesus had children? Talk about ‘burden of proof’! 😂 Seriously, this is meant to be satire, right?!

Blotty

There is some "satire" in there yes (obviously some of that is deeply exaggerated and unrealistic), but the arguments in themselves (concept of the argument) I'm quite serious about.

"so atheists obviously have no burden of proof to ‘disprove Jesus’ existence’." - ones who say he didn't have a multitude of scholars to debate on this subject.. I personally believe it for many reasons. (Iv been alot in my atheism -> trinitarian -> "JW"(not formally one, but same beliefs, call that what you want), I have changed my opinion a lot is what I'm saying )

Jesus didn't have kids (as far as we are aware, most likely not - nothing is explicitly mentioned tho) but he did have siblings (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brothers_of_Jesus#:~:text=The%20brothers%20of%20Jesus%20or,mentioned%20in%20Mark%20and%20Matthew.), who likely did have kids (again not explicit but it wouldn't make sense for them, compared to Jesus). yes the existence argument is actually pathetic in itself. but then many points must be raised - The bible doesn't provide the answer to everything

Disillusioned JW

On page 8 of this topic thread Sea Breeze wrote the following. "Mark Lanier is a Trial Lawyer" who spoke "on the topic of the nature of evidence" at an event "of an atheist / christian book club". Sea Breeze also said the following regarding the "club". "Recently they completed a segment called "Christianity on Trial". They just completed a segment called "Atheism on Trial"." What Sea Breeze did not say is that though Mark Lanier is a trail lawyer, he is also a Christian apologist with an honorary theological degree and that he has published a Christian apologetic book called Christianity on Trial: A Lawyer Examines the Christian Faith and a Christian apologetic book called Atheism on Trial: A Lawyer Examines the Case for Unbelief. Both books are published by InterVarsity Press - a Christian publisher. I thus strongly suspect that the "club" Sea Breeze wrote of is one created by Mark Lanier. https://www.lanierlawfirm.com/attorneys/w-mark-lanier/ says the following about Mark Lanier.

"Mark has been awarded honorary doctor degrees from St. Johns University, Pepperdine University and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. ...

Personal Background

A devout Christian, Mark is also the founder of the Lanier Theological Library, one of the nation’s largest private theological collections. He teaches a weekly, 700-plus-member Sunday school class focusing on Biblical literacy at Champion Forest Baptist Church in Houston. Mark is also the founder of the Christian Trial Lawyers Association, a nonprofit organization working to create a network of principled attorneys to minister to others through civic-minded endeavors. Mark has also published several books on faith. These include Christianity on Trial (IVP, 2014) and a daily devotional book titled Psalms for Living: Daily Prayers, Wisdom, and Guidance (Baylor University Press, 2016), the latter of which was awarded the 2018 Illumination Book Award in the Devotional category. He followed this up with Torah for Living (Baylor University Press, 2018)."

Laanier's above mentioned web page in the html code for "<title>" says "W. Mark Lanier - Attorney, Pastor & Founder of The Lanier Law Firm".

Atheists and others who do not believe in Christianity should keeps the above mentioned facts in mind about Mark Lanier when considering watching the video (of which Sea Breeze provided a link to) which includes him as a speaker. Sea Breeze tends to use exclusively Christian apologetic sources in his posts in which he criticizes atheism, materialism, naturalism, and evolution.

Disillusioned JW

Correction: On page 9 of this topic thread I had a typo when I wrote the following. "Well I learned many years. from a science show on television, that some people can function well (including thinking very consciously) despite having the vast majority of their brain tissue!" I meant instead the following. "Well I learned many years ago from a science show on television, that some people can function well (including thinking very consciously) despite having the vast majority of their brain tissue severely damaged or even gone/missing!"

Disillusioned JW

Though I still have a number of Christian books which I still read (though for various reasons) I now intensely dislike reading books (and watching videos) which are specifically apologetic for Christianity (or for some other religion which teaches that the supernatural exists) - especially if they are also heavily criticizing atheism, evolution, and/or scientific naturalism. I thus have no desire at all to watch Christian apologetic videos of Mark Lanier.

wozza

@ Seabreeze

So does a memory stick weigh more when data is put on it? Really?

When you talk to someone do you weigh LESS when the sound comes out of your mouth?

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

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