Who raised Jesus from the dead? (page 4)

ThomasMore

I cannot be that cynical Jeffro. I think people tell accounts of what they experienced. For me to say so many are mistaken seems wrong. Whatever the case, I personally feel that my body is part of my existence but not all. What is it that really makes me me? I think it is a stream of consciousness that I cannot explain without resorting to the belief in my life force. If I am correct, then losing this physical body for another is not. But, I could be wrong…

TonusOH

One can experience a hallucination, or a delusion brought about by drugs or stress or a number of other causes. None of these experiences are real, but they are experienced nonetheless.

Jeffro

ThomasMore:

I think people tell accounts of what they experienced.

They tell their interpretations of experiences that are no more ‘real’ than a dream. It isn’t evidence of anything mystical.

Sea Breeze

People who aren’t dead provide details of experiences when they were near death....

@Jeffro , that is a fallacy of false dichotomy. Incorrect thinking. I believe it is important to learn to think correctly after leaving a cult, which I assume you did the same as I.

The discussion regarding terminal lucidity and NDE's is not whether or not a dead physical body can experience things.

The discussion is how do you explain from a materialist worldview the hundreds of thousands of cases where people, minutes or hours before death, suddenly are perfectly lucid and can talk who have not done so for years or even decades prior? This phenomena is consistent with the idea that the soul leaves the body when the body stops functioning.

Many cases have been documented of this happening in patients with:

1. Severe mental retardation when the patient has never spoken since birth.

2. Severe Alzheimers patients where the brain has derterioated to the point of showing little more than a functionaing cebral cortex to sustain heart beat, breathing etc.

3. Severe dementia patients who have no clue who they or anyone else is.

Is this not strong circumstantial evidence for consciousness existing apart from the physical body, especially when brain scans shown little left of the physical brain?

How do you explain the many documented cases of NDE's where the patient clinically dies, their consciousness leaves their body and they see many details in nearby rooms? Once revived, they tell others who find the information to be true.

Behaviour of neurotransmitters near death is fairly well understood.

Again, this is false reasoning. The subject being discussed is consciousness, not neuro transmitters. Numerous studies are just beginning to be conducted in these areas.

How do you explain having any experience without a nervous system?

I get my explanation from God's word which says that souls have consciousness. The medical facts are on my side here. How do you expalin terminal lucidity and NDE's with just a nervous system?

Beliefs about consciousness independent of a functioning physical body are just made up nonsense based on ignorance and wishful thinking.

Really? I don't think so. I believe the soul is your true consciousness. The physical brain with its neuro transmitters is simply the interface by which conscienceness can perceive and interact within a physical environment. I believe that TL cases and NDE's are consistent with this view and are impossible to explain from a materialist worldview.

You are more than welcome to try though.

Disillusioned JW

Sea Breeze made the following claim of which I wish to see scientific documentation for.

"Many cases have been documented of this happening in patients with:

1. Severe mental retardation when the patient has never spoken since birth.

2. Severe Alzheimers patients where the brain has derterioated to the point of showing little more than a functionaing cebral cortex to sustain heart beat, breathing etc."

What genuine science books or science journal articles document such? I would like to read such documentation. But even if I see and read documentation for such, I do not think it makes Sea Breeze's case that a spirit soul is doing the communication since such would seem to be ruled by the following words of Sea Breeze. "The physical brain with its neuro transmitters is simply the interface by which conscienceness can perceive and interact within a physical environment." Those words of Sea Breeze imply (to me at least) his theory means that the spirit soul would be unable to interface with the brain to cause the body speak out loud or to sing out loud when the brain is severely damaged to such a major extent.

Jeffro

Sea Breeze:

Jeffro , that is a fallacy of false dichotomy.

It’s really not 😂. I don’t think you understand what a dichotomy is.

peacefulpete

And multiple personality disorders are the best explained as demon possession or a wandering soul looking for a body to inhabit.

Jeffro

See Breeze:

The discussion is how do you explain from a materialist worldview the hundreds of thousands of cases where people, minutes or hours before death, suddenly are perfectly lucid and can talk who have not done so for years or even decades prior? This phenomena is consistent with the idea that the soul leaves the body when the body stops functioning.

This is a plain old argument from ignorance. Every time the reason has been understood for someone recovering from some type of unresponsive state, the answer has been physiological. But this doesn’t rule out physiological explanations when the reason has not been understood, nor is it evidence of souls/aliens/government microchips or whatever other woo someone cares to speculatively offer as ‘the reason’. To suggest any action ‘is consistent with the soul returning to the body’, one would first need to demonstrate that a such a thing is even possible.

This game of ‘if you don’t know the exact reason, then whatever I say is the right explanation (or even plausible)’ really is very dull.

TonusOH

The USAF was able to induce NDEs in pilots by subjecting them to high G-forces:

https://magazine.tcu.edu/spring-2008/losing-consciousness-cockpit/

They weren't trying to do that, they were studying the effects of such forces on pilots who were flying their (then) new F-15 and F-16 jets, which were able to create much higher forces than a person could normally withstand.

They also asked the pilots to describe the symptoms they experienced while in the centrifuge or in flight. A clear pattern emerged. The first thing they experienced was tunnel vision, which results from a lack of blood flow to the eyes and is a precursor to a blackout. Then, while unconscious, many of the subjects experienced short, vivid dreams, or dreamlets. The dreams were often about past experiences or family and friends.

In addition to dreamlets, a significant number of pilots reported having out-of-body experiences. The subjects described the sensation of floating above their planes and looking down at their bodies. Sometimes the dreamlets and out-of-body experiences were accompanied by feelings of euphoria and warmth. Some subjects said they saw a bright light.

Surprised by his findings, Whinnery sought out scientific literature about reported out-of-body experiences. He found that out-of-body experiences were reported by cardiac arrest patients who were resuscitated. The pilots and heart attack victims had something in common: a momentary loss of blood to the brain.

Vidiot

“Who raised Jesus from the dead?”

Xenu.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

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