Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  slimboyfat

  Dagney asked why are some verses taken literally & not others??
  Thats what I'd like to know & many others
  It’s called "" cherry picking "".

  The argument is that since the 144,000 in Revelation is directly contrasted with a “great crowd, which no man was able to number” (Rev 7.9), therefore the 144,000 is taken to be a literal number. Also there is mention in Romans 11.25 of “the full number” of those grafted onto Israel from the nations, which is taken to indicate that the “Israel of God” (Gal 6.16) comprises a specific number of individuals that once filled is, um, full.
  
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  Phizzy

  That, slim, is the very weak J.W argument.

  I wonder if this rumour has some foundation ? many J.W's struggled to swallow the literal number idea.

  One such, an eighty year old former Elder, who "stepped down" for family reasons years ago, told me, a few weeks back, he doubted it could be literal, but he added he feels ,still, that J.W's have got "most things right". Sad, in all other areas of life he uses Critical Thinking Skills , and Fact Checking properly, but gives his religion almost a total Free Pass.

  How many more J.W's are there that feel this way about the 144,000 number ?
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  dropoffyourkeylee

  My opinion is that if there is such a change, it would be motivated entirely by GB succession planning. The doctrine began in the Russell days when 144,000 seemed like a lot considering the relatively few people in the Bible Student association. May have seemed believable at the time, but as the years have gone by and there's no end in sight, it has become ridiculous. The pool of candidates for leadership, ie: the GB, is so small that all they can get are nitwits.
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  TonusOH

  Journeyman: Admittedly, it might seem a bad idea to imply a lot of your members are deluded or even mentally unwell(!) as they hinted

  This might be a good reason to drop the literal number. I think they said this (about partakers possibly being mentally unwell) in the hopes of getting people to stop partaking, so that the number of the remnant would drop again. Then they could go back to saying "look at the dwindling number of partakers! The end must be close!"

  But the number has just continued to climb. We went from a low of around 8,800 to more than 22,000. The number is an albatross now; it is difficult to reference it without being reminded that it has increased significantly after the change in 'understanding.' The ship has sailed.

  A change that makes the number inconsequential might be the first step to dealing with the problem. The eventual last step would be that they could ignore it, since the number would no longer matter. The concept of two groups (one heavenly, one earthly) could still be used, without the issues that a hard number creates.
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  Duran

  [14 “For there are many invited, but few chosen.”]
  

  [26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.]

  [4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, 144,000, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel]
  

  [14 Then I saw, and look! the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who have his name and the name of his Father written on their foreheads.]

  [3 And they are singing what seems to be a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders, and no one was able to master that song except the 144,000, who have been bought from the earth.]

  [9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.] cf. [4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]

  [ 10 My aim is to know him and the power of his resurrection and to share in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 to see if at all possible I may attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.12 Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pressing on to see if I may also lay hold on that for which Christ Jesus selected me. 13 Brothers, I do not yet consider myself as having taken hold of it; but one thing is certain: Forgetting the things behind and stretching forward to the things ahead, 14 I am pressing on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God by means of Christ Jesus.]
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  MeanMrMustard

  Meh. I don't think they will do it.

  Where does this rumor come from? Anything better than "there is a rumor out there"?
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  Vanderhoven7

  Gotta stop counting the anointed.
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  Biahi

  I wish they would allow birthdays and holidays, but I doubt it. 🙄🤷‍♀️
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  ThomasMore

  I think like many other changes - it is a distraction from the serious problems they facing like attendance, CSA settlements, government investigations, down-sizing, KH sales, asset consolidation, obesity:( ...

  Seriously, none of the changes they have made thus far have actually made any difference in their attendance which is diminishing. Perhaps they have decided to finally address the many inquiries they receive about this erroneous teaching, but I doubt it. My gut (irritable bowel syndrome) tells me that these changes shift the conversation among remaining members, meanwhile behind the scenes, significant changes like the transfer of assets to the Irish corporations are in play, and SHOULD be making members seriously question what they are doing.

  The bottom line: WTC has no clue when it comes to scriptural matters. I get a higher degree of accuracy flipping a coin.
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  Beth Sarim

  I just cant see the Borg allowing holidays and birthdays.

  Its an isolationist technique. Isolating.

  And,,, it takes focus away from the Borg to the individuals. Think of all the focus the Borg will lose if individual JWs could celebrate birthdays. This is what John on his ExJw-analyzer video pointed out one time.

  And isolation. This has worked for years and years for the Borg,,,,why would they change it now.