Rumour 144,000 literal number teaching to be abandoned at Annual Meeting

by slimboyfat 135 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  Mikejw

  According to their doctrine there were tens of thousands in the first century. Then over the last 20 centuries there were an unknown number chosen some of the Bible translators and other Christians who were burned and such for their faith.

  Then in modern times even my grandfathers times around the time of WW2, most of the congregations were full of those who claimed a heavenly hope. My parents grew up in congregations that were full of so called anointed older ones.

  then slowly after the 1950s there were less and less anointed ones and you started to get older ones who had an earthly hope which was unusual.

  the numbers do not add up
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  slimboyfat

  I think they do add up, if you allow for around 50,000 in the first century, 50,000 in modern times, and around 44,000 in between. This takes into account that not all anointed “finish their course” faithful to the end.

  50,000 is realistic for the first century going by the figures of sociologist Rodney Stark. And 50,000 is realistic for modern times because I think the peak number of anointed ever reported was around 30,000, and again, not all reported anointed remain faithful to death. Say around half the people who report anointed stay faithful to death as a rough estimate.

  The 44,000 in between is a pure guess because who knows what counts as anointed in this period. Figures such as Tyndale and Servetus have at times been suggested, and I think the description of a “trickle” has been used.

  So all in all, the numbers do add up, although each year that passes, and each increase reported does put a strain on that.
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  Duran

  8 billion or so current living people
  

  2 billion (1/4) die as a result of POD

  6 billion on hand to live during the 8th king rule

  Of those 6b there are 2 groups. Group 1 that support/go along with/take the MOTB and group 2 that refuse/reject the MOTB in support of God's kingdom.

  Group 2 are who will make up the GC.

  Group 1 are who are killed at Armageddon.

  Whatever the number proves to be of the GC (500m,1b, 1.5b, 2b, 2.5b) that survive out of the 6b, one thing that ALL have in common is that they refused the 8th king/to take the MOTB, etc.

  That end number of survivors would prove to be higher but many of the GC will die during the time of the 8th king while refusing to take the MOTB/etc. This does not mean that they are not still part of the GC but just that they can't be numbered among those that come out of the GT living. (This is why the number of the GC can't be numbered by man.)

  100% of group 1 are killed at Armageddon

  100% of group 2 inherit God's kingdom but only a limited number of those are chosen to rule with Jesus.

  This limited number in total is 144k. It does not matter how many so-called Christians there has been since the 1st century until today and during the last 42 months before Jesus comes. 144k are whom get chosen to rule with Jesus and a portion of the 144k can't even be in the running to be chosen until the time of the 8th king/MOTB.

  It is ridiculous to hear about WTS counting/reporting so-called anointed/chosen to rule with Jesus by their partaking at memorials.

  No JW to date starting with CTR, regardless of their partaking, could meet the criteria of being chosen to rule with Jesus unless they had been killed for their faith and for speaking about it or died/killed by 8th king while refusing to take the MOTB which we haven't even gotten to that point in time yet.

  This rules out those that died/die from UTI's, strokes, cancer, heart attacks, etc. all while living as kings at Bethel or Beth Sarim as well as individual JWs living around the world not part of the GB but who think they are anointed/chosen to rule with Jesus.
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  FreeTheMasons

  ...speaking of Beth-Sarim and Bethel...during the time of the Annual Meeting/Fall Equinox there are typically other "celebrations" the voting members of the Watchtower take part in.

  Only those "anointed" into that layer of the organization will attend.

  ("Happy Mabon.")
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  Beth Sarim

  Of course only the ""upper echelon" of the WT society.
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  blondie

  How many partook in 1925? "Attendance grew steadily over the years, with at least 90,434 Bible Students observing the Memorial in 1925." BTW, there was no great crowd then, all members were considered to be anointed, due to go to heaven. I talked to Rodney Stark once on this, and he said it is hard to determine how many Christians there were in the first century. The WTS said the "apostacy" started after that with the death of the last apostle of the 12 with Jesus died. The WTS then suggests that few anointed were chosen then. 50,000 approximate for 1st century plus 90,000 = 140,000 total. They may change to "the bible does not say" but..."

  https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/144000.php
  

  To be conservative, from the figures above we can estimate that by the end of the first century there were at least 65,000 Christians and in 1935 there were 52,000 Anointed Watchtower followers. Therefore we have:

  • 144,000
  • less 65,000
  • less 52,000
  • equals 27,000 true Christians called during the 1835 years between 100 A.D. and 1935

  We understand that this heavenly calling continued down through the centuries, though during the so-called Dark Ages, there may have been times when the number of anointed ones were very few. With the reestablishment of true Christianity near the end of the last century, more were called and chosen. But it seems that in the mid-1930's, the full number of the 144,000 was basically completed. Thus there began to appear a group of loyal Christians with the earthly hope. Jesus termed such "other sheep," who unite in worship with the anointed as one approved flock." Watchtower 1996 Aug 15 p.31

  
  
• 

  ThomasMore

  Trying to make sense of WTC numbers is maddening as Blondie proves.

  These days, it seems that few organizations tell the truth and fewer are willing to admit it even when their assertions are proven false beyond all doubt. So where are all the liars headed? All we can say is "in the wrong direction".

  If WTC admits at the next annual meeting that the 144,000 is a figurative number, or that it is perhaps the number of actually engaged heavenly citizens at a given time - they expose that they have no clue whatsoever. In fact, WTC does not have Bible scholars who have any formal training in theological studies - and yes - it does matter.

  The fruitage of such theological illiteracy is the flip flops we have seen over the years. It is not "new light" - just the same old charlatans changing clothes while hoping that no one notices.
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  Beth Sarim

  Thats because religions hate being caught in a ""lie"". They finagle their way through it.

  The Borg is NO exception!!!
• 

  Rivergang

  There is, though, the problem of rumours.

  A bit like the one which did the rounds a few decades ago now about the warehouse that the WTS was said to be building - specifically being constructed to store all the rumours in!
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  Duran

  But it seems that in the mid-1930's, the full number of the 144,000 was basically completed.

  Oh yeah, that's right because in 1935 the ones that needed to be killed to complete the number, that is when they were killed while refusing the MOTB of the 8th king during 1935.

  It all makes sense now.

  [9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness they had given. 10 They shouted with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them, and they were told to rest a little while longer, until [1935 when] the number was filled of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they had been.]
  

  [4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who [in 1935] had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.]