by nicolaou 299 Replies latest watchtower bible
joey jojo:
Compared to the rest of humanity, Adam and Eve suffered nothing. They lived over 900 years in near perfect health in a pristine world.
In reality, they didn’t exist at all… which I suppose still means they didn’t suffer. In the context of the story, they were in pristine conditions only until the capricious deity expelled them from the garden to prevent them eating from the magical tree that imparts immortality.
KalebOutWest:
Oh, for crying out loud! You are all a bunch of spoiled brats who want to promote your own ideas. You can't think outside your self-serving bubbles if you tried!
[Extended judgemental rant]
O…K… looks like someone is angry anyway.
And if you really wanted to know the answer, you would stop arguing and go and get a degree in theology.
That’s right, the only two options are ‘don’t talk about it at all’ or ‘get a degree in theology’. Because how dare anyone else talk about something on a discussion forum. 🤦♂️
KOW:
Star Wars, Harry Potter, and the folklore and myths and legends of my people the Jews, and not.
I suppose we’ll have to shut down all the Star Wars and Harry Potter discussion forums too. Either that or they’ll have to all get degrees first.
Jeffro -Nonsense. In the story, Eve dies because the jerk God character prevents her from eating a separate magical fruit, not because of any inherent property of the first magical fruit (which does precisely what the snake said would happen). Nothing in the story suggests the snake knew that would happen.
Read the verses in Genesis 3 below jeffro -
"Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
How did the snake know what God had said to Eve?
2 "The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
Now here immediately comes the lie
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
As you explained, thereafter God took away the tree of life...and both Adam and Eve died, just as God told them they would if they ate from the wrong tree.
Halcon:
As you explained, thereafter God took away the tree of life...and both Adam and Eve died, just as God told them they would if they ate from the wrong tree.
Maybe you’re reading a different story. In the version I have, God doesn’t tell Eve (who doesn’t get a name until later in the story) anything about either tree, and only tells Adam about the tree of knowledge. The story doesn’t state whether Eve is directly told by God about the tree of knowledge or whether it’s via Adam, but it doesn’t say either are told about the tree of life. God tells Adam he’ll die if he eats from the tree of knowledge, but isn’t told that this was actually a threat about preventing access to the other magical tree rather than a property of the knowledge fruit itself. As presented in the story, the snake didn’t lie when it said that eating the knowledge fruit doesn’t itself cause death, nor does the story say whether the snake knew about the deceptive scheme to prevent access to the other magical tree. Death was caused by the capricious deity getting angry at the naive people for being naive and preventing access to a different magical tree, not at the moment of eating the magical fruit that gave them knowledge.
jeffro -In the version I have, God doesn’t tell Eve (who doesn’t get a name until later in the story) anything about either tree, and only tells Adam about the tree of knowledge. The story doesn’t state whether Eve is directly told by God about the tree of knowledge or whether it’s via Adam, but it doesn’t say either are told about the tree of life.
Here is Genesis chapter 2
15 "The Lord God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the Lord God commanded the man, “You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die"
God prohibited Adam and Eve to eat from only ONE tree. They could eat from all the other trees to their hearts content. This included the tree of life.
As presented in the story, the snake didn’t lie when it said that eating the knowledge fruit doesn’t itself cause death.
God said of the wrong tree, and Eve repeated in the next chapter, "for when you eat from it you will certainly die".
The snake said the exact opposite thing as the words above..."you will not certainly die".
Halcon:
Here is Genesis chapter 2
You quoted verses 15-17, but unnamed rib-woman didn’t even exist until verse 22.
The snake said the exact opposite thing as the words above..."you will not certainly die".
And, in the story, the snake was correct. It was not certain that eating from the tree of knowledge would result in death. It was only because access to the other tree was prevented that resulted in death. It is directly stated in the story.
And, in the story, the snake was correct. It was not certain that eating from the tree of knowledge would result in death.
Except God said -
17 "but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat from it you will certainly die".
Eve understood the same thing, repeating it back to the snake verbatim.
Lol. Maybe this is why he was given a wife. Brilliant, even better.
Notice, in that newly discovered ancient manuscript, immortalized on page 6 of this thread, that documents a discussion between Adam and God, that I definitely did not make up, you can get a sense of how futile it would be to attempt to steer a man that can't tell good from evil.
A man that has no knowledge of good and evil can't be given a reason "why" he should refrain, other than a direct threat to his own physical experience, just a general consequence in a cause/effect relationship.
Perhaps the "tree" lie was just another "white lie" told by God because there was no other way to explain it Adam. "You'll die if you eat from that tree" might have been the only way to get Adam to respond, much like "You'll go blind if you keep jerking it around the garden."
So he understood that God gave him instructions, and he followed them. He knew God was in charge. Adam understood he was subservient to God.
Adam was mentally capable...
He could understand facts told to him. And logic. But since he didn't understand good from evil, right from wrong, navigating a world of free will would be like navigating a world of color when all you can see is gray.
Halcon:
Except God said
Yes, God told the lie. I know. It’s not necessary to quote it again. After they ate the magical fruit, separate action had to be taken to prevent them accessing the other magical fruit as is directly stated in verses 22-24, rather than their death being ‘certain’.
Eve understood the same thing, repeating it back to the snake verbatim.
Yes, the story says Eve was told the lie as well, though it doesn’t say whether she heard it directly from God or secondhand from Adam. But she certainly didn’t hear it when it was said before she was… made from a rib. 🙄
