Who told the first lie?

by nicolaou 299 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • slimboyfat
    slimboyfat
    Who told the first lie?

    According to the Bible the devil is “the father of lies”. It’s fair enough reading Genesis in different ways (many, including Christadelphains, see no devil there at all) but in terms of the Christian Bible’s own interpretation of itself, it is clear the devil was the first liar.

    John 8.44 You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    Sea Breeze:

    The fruit is just a manifestation of the core issue

    Yeah, that's why it was urgent that they be prevented from eating the fruit of the other magical tree (Genesis 3:22-24). 🙄

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    slimboyfat:

    According to the Bible the devil is “the father of lies”. It’s fair enough reading Genesis in different ways (many, including Christadelphains, see no devil there at all) but in terms of the Christian Bible’s own interpretation of itself, it is clear the devil was the first liar.

    Sure, if we pretend the Bible is actually this homogeneous consistent thing rather than the reality that it is stories built on stories built on stories.

    The snake in Genesis is derived from the snake in the Epic of Gilgamesh. There was no 'Satan the Devil' at the time Genesis was written (during the Neo-Babylonian period, but also definitely not if one wants to pretend it was written even earlier). Satan (as an individual rather than a generic concept) was borrowed from later Persian beliefs.

    It hardly matters that Christians later decided that their stories represent the Bible 'interpreting itself'.

  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Joey -No normal person would punish the descendants of a person in perpetuity because they disobeyed.

    Are you sure this is what a person of faith believes?

  • TonusOH
    TonusOH

    I'm more fascinated by the concept of the Tree of Life. The story implies that Adam and Eve were not immortal- they had a finite lifespan. They had to have access to the Tree of Life if they wanted to continue to live. Yahweh is not above the most petty mechanisms of control.

    The story does not read well if it is taken literally, as JWs do. A literal reading makes Yahweh something of an extortionist, dangling the Tree of Life in one hand and the Tree of Knowledge in the other. Take from one, lest ye run out of life. Take not from the other, or I shall deny thee access to the first one. Then he looks away as a snake tempts the hopelessly unprepared Eve into breaking god's rules. And finally, he curses humankind and even the planet itself, as punishment.

    The story portrays him as a petty thug. A mean and unscrupulous person. A jerk. He creates a world, populates it with a pair of sentient beings, then places traps all around them. Their failure is inevitable, and he knows this. It's part of his plan to... build himself up as a savior????

    Nothing about it reflects the actions of a considerate, kind, or caring person. Which makes the attempts at explanation even worse. I cannot accept that a loving being would do any of this. It is incoherent. It makes no sense. An impersonal and uncaring god might spawn a universe and leave it to its devices, leading to a world where suffering happens constantly and happiness is fleeting. That god is more likely to be real than Yahweh.

  • blondie
    blondie

    According to the bible, as interpreted by the WTS and several other so-called Christian religions do claim that Satan told the first lie. As to other historical accounts considered, that is another approach. So, it depends.

  • sloppyjoe2
    sloppyjoe2

    • TonusOH
      25 minutes ago

      I'm more fascinated by the concept of the Tree of Life. The story implies that Adam and Eve were not immortal- they had a finite lifespan. They had to have access to the Tree of Life if they wanted to continue to live. Yahweh is not above the most petty mechanisms of control.

      The story does not read well if it is taken literally, as JWs do. A literal reading makes Yahweh something of an extortionist, dangling the Tree of Life in one hand and the Tree of Knowledge in the other. Take from one, lest ye run out of life. Take not from the other, or I shall deny thee access to the first one. Then he looks away as a snake tempts the hopelessly unprepared Eve into breaking god's rules. And finally, he curses humankind and even the planet itself, as punishment.

      The story portrays him as a petty thug. A mean and unscrupulous person. A jerk. He creates a world, populates it with a pair of sentient beings, then places traps all around them. Their failure is inevitable, and he knows this. It's part of his plan to... build himself up as a savior????

      Nothing about it reflects the actions of a considerate, kind, or caring person. Which makes the attempts at explanation even worse. I cannot accept that a loving being would do any of this. It is incoherent. It makes no sense. An impersonal and uncaring god might spawn a universe and leave it to its devices, leading to a world where suffering happens constantly and happiness is fleeting. Thatgod is more likely to be real than Yahweh.


      • TonusOH
        25 minutes ago

        I'm more fascinated by the concept of the Tree of Life. The story implies that Adam and Eve were not immortal- they had a finite lifespan. They had to have access to the Tree of Life if they wanted to continue to live. Yahweh is not above the most petty mechanisms of control.

        The story does not read well if it is taken literally, as JWs do. A literal reading makes Yahweh something of an extortionist, dangling the Tree of Life in one hand and the Tree of Knowledge in the other. Take from one, lest ye run out of life. Take not from the other, or I shall deny thee access to the first one. Then he looks away as a snake tempts the hopelessly unprepared Eve into breaking god's rules. And finally, he curses humankind and even the planet itself, as punishment.

        The story portrays him as a petty thug. A mean and unscrupulous person. A jerk. He creates a world, populates it with a pair of sentient beings, then places traps all around them. Their failure is inevitable, and he knows this. It's part of his plan to... build himself up as a savior????

        Nothing about it reflects the actions of a considerate, kind, or caring person. Which makes the attempts at explanation even worse. I cannot accept that a loving being would do any of this. It is incoherent. It makes no sense. An impersonal and uncaring god might spawn a universe and leave it to its devices, leading to a world where suffering happens constantly and happiness is fleeting. Thatgod is more likely to be real than Yahweh.”

        Speaking of the tree of life. It reappears in Revelation 22. Since the Bible indicates this is the way Adam and Eve would live forever, I conclude that that is the way God in Revelation 21 makes “death no more.” All of this takes place though after Jesus Mellennial reign. JWs believe that people won’t die after Armageddon. The Bible by its account indicates that doesn’t take place for a thousand years.


  • Halcon
    Halcon
    Tonus -I'm more fascinated by the concept of the Tree of Life. The story implies that Adam and Eve were not immortal- they had a finite lifespan. They had to have access to the Tree of Life if they wanted to continue to live. Yahweh is not above the most petty mechanisms of control.

    But would you still eat of the tree of life if it meant to keep living?

  • Jeffro
    Jeffro

    slopplyjoe2:

    Speaking of the tree of life. It reappears in Revelation 22. Since the Bible indicates this is the way Adam and Eve would live forever, I conclude that that is the way God in Revelation 21 makes “death no more.”

    It isn’t so much a ‘reappearance’ as unimpressive plagiarism of the story in Genesis and rehashed imagery from Ezekiel.

    JWs believe that people won’t die after Armageddon.

    No, they say that people won’t die (unless they do*) after a final spate of killing by God after a ‘final test’ after the 1,000 years, though the Bible refers to a final attack by enemy nations rather than a ‘final test’. And they get everything else wrong about (what the Bible says about) the 1,000 years too.

    *The Watch Tower Society allows for God to “annihilate” anyone who ‘sins’ after the ‘final test’ (The Watchtower, 15 August 2006, p. 31), but suggests it would be “very unlikely”.

  • sloppyjoe2
    sloppyjoe2

    @Jeffro, Don't JWs believe that for the entire millennial reign, humans will be growing back to perfection? As in there will be no death by old age, sickness and so on? Or do they believe that the millennial reign things will stay the same as they are today? The tree of life appearing after the millennial reign is the only reason the bible indicates anyone won't die.

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