Who told the first lie? (page 15)

Halcon

Tonus -Both god and the serpent even use the same phrasing, that she would 'become like god.' As an allegory, it isn't perfect, but it works well enough-- Eve is tempted by the possibility of being able to direct her own life, independent of god's rules. (The fact that this idea is so obviously flawed is simply a reflection of the people and culture that produced it, IMO.

Yes. To someone like me, this is the heart of the matter. The failure to recognize one's limited position before God.

The all-or-nothing approach (obey or die) is extreme in any context, much less one where god is meant to be a kind and loving father who is pained by our failures. It is impossible to square the ideal person of god with the person who sets Adam and Eve up for a fall, then is merciless in his method of resolution. If this was the best outcome one could have hoped for, then god is not the person that the NT makes him out to be.

It's impossible to square the 'ideal' person of God with anything when it is WE that determine what is ideal.

However, God himself reveals exactly who he is. And altho the scriptures repeatedly demonstrate his consideration and affection for his creation, many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.

Halcon

Jeffro -In that case, the snake couldn’t validly be accused of deception if it didn’t know right from wrong.

Except the snake knew what God had already told Adam and Eve. He directly contradicted God.

peacefulpete

However, God himself reveals exactly who he is.

The Bible writers depicted many faces of God. Some of those are not very attractive.

And altho the scriptures repeatedly demonstrate his consideration and affection for his creation,...

It's good you focus on that rather than the God that sends lions to kill innocent children.

...many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.

Who gets the final say? The GB? the Pope? an ancient writer we never met? God hasn't said anything.

peacefulpete

A last thought about that 'ancient writer' mentioned in my last post. Maybe the writer was just like many of us, struggling to understand his place in the world and clinging to a belief system in the face of overwhelming evidence against it. As part of a community of similarly conflicted believers, he wanted to appear resolute, so wrote about how his God had everything under control and how someday everything will be better. I can relate to that guy, as it wasn't so long ago I did the same.

TonusOH

Halcon: many simply cannot accept that he also has the final say.

This is an odd thing about gods, including Yahweh. They seem to disappoint those who know them directly.

If you were to know such a being unambiguously, there would be no question that he has the final say. He is a being of incomparable power. No one can possibly foil his plans, and no one can stand against him. There can't be any confusion about this.

And yet... so many of the people who knew him directly were unimpressed. If we go with the Christian narrative, the serpent is under the control of an angel who turned against god. This angel was able to turn the first humans against god. This angel -if the book of Revelations is to be believed- turned a third of the angels against this god. All of them knew that this action could only end in their destruction. But they were willing to turn against him anyway.

When I was a believer, I thought of god as the single most impressive and amazing individual I could possibly ever have the privilege of knowing. The idea that I might find him to be unimpressive or disappointing was simply unfathomable. And yet, so many of the people who met him were willing to turn on him, even knowing that this meant death (or worse, eternal torment).

The one constant with this being is his overwhelming power, and his willingness to use it to justify his actions. And even with that threat hanging over them, many beings have decided it is better to die and/or suffer than to live under his rule. What could they know about him that would lead them to behave in such a manner?

nicolaou

FragrantAddendum: people keep lying about him

I actually agree with this. "God is love" is one of the biggest lies ever told.

FragrantAddendum

@nicolaou, who are some people that you love?

(asking for a friend)

nicolaou

FragrantAddendum: @nicolaou, who are some people that you love?

This topic isn't about me but as you asked, I'm a bit of a hippy really. I love pretty much everyone but I do draw the line at child killers.

You know, like your god.

Jeffro

Halcon:

Except the snake knew what God had already told Adam and Eve.

That is not indicated in the story, which doesn’t specify that God directly gave the command to Eve at all. The command was given to Adam before rib-girl was made, and the story doesn’t say whether Eve learned of the command directly from God or from Adam. When the snake asks Eve about what trees they can eat from, Eve gives a different answer to the actual original command without referencing the name of the tree at all (despite your false claim that she repeated the exact same words), and the snake doesn’t correct her about the original command, but only corrects the lie. The story indicates that the snake knew the truth about the tree of knowledge and it knew God had said something about what trees they could eat from, but not that it knew the exact command given to Adam.

Jeffro

FragrantAddendum:

(asking for a friend)

Good. If you think God is your friend, you could probably do with some real ones.

Who told the first lie?

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