Who told the first lie? (page 24)

KalebOutWest

Yes Jeffro, you are correct. It is an oversimplification, but it is still true nevertheless.

The Mosaic Code has greatly influenced our Western legal systems, especially that of criminal law. Concepts from the Mosaic Code, like “strict liability” and proportional punishment, are used in today's modern laws. Holding people accountable for their actions and making sure punishments are fair historically go back to the days of American Puritanism. One can therefore say America's civil and criminal justice systems are grounded on the Mosaic Code.--American Jurispruidence: Influences in Western Societal Systems, Delaware, 1976.

However this is not to say that the Western legal system is based on the Torah or the Bible. It is not. The Torah itself is not the inventor of the ideas and ideals found within its legal system, so one cannot even claim that in the purest sense.

America however did not grow up in a vacuum. It developed in one inspired by and moved due from religious values, Judeo-Christian ones. From the Founding Fathers to the Abolitionist Movement to the Women's Suffrage Movement, the Bible and especially the Mosaic Law shaped Americans and the fight for freedom in the West, not to mention inspire it in other parts of Europe as well. The laws that established the Civil Rights movement were also inspired by Exodus found in the Torah.

But directly, no. I agree with you. It was merely a simplification. The story is far more complex than what I had or have time to express here...

...Or that you give credit to.

Jeffro

...Or that you give credit to.

🙄 And you were doing so well.

KalebOutWest

And of course, the point I made, leave it to Jeffro to be nitpicky and to go off track about something because the mainpoint--that God does lie and in fact lies and that the Bible has many instances of this--and that this is just mythology where in the genre God is not bound to sensical things (again in the same myth God walks, talks, is under the Mosaic Law, and the Law itself existed before the world was founded) creates paradoxes if one takes any debate on whether "God lies" seriously.

God isn't a person or entity, even by Jewish standards, the people and culture who wrote the story.

In Judaism, "God" isn't even a "deity" which is why the founder of the Society for Humanistic Judaism had to invent a new terminology for his stand on the matter: ignosticism. One cannot argue belief for or against something that isn't a deity to begin with because no one can actually define something that is "ineffable" according to Jewish theology--so why even discuss it let alone debate it?

Of course, we are not talking about SHJ or Judaism. We are talking about people who have been influenced by the Watchtower. They get nitpicky, like Jeffro, over the wrong points.

It's okay to debate over God if that is your thing, and if this "God" lies or not.

But it is kinda ridiculous if at the same time you do not believe that this deity (or any) exists.

And when you say "God," which God do you mean? The God of the Bible? The Jewish Bible, as understood by the Jews? As understood by mainstream Christianity? They don't believe in the "God of the Bible." That is only something Fundamentalists believe in--and then only Christian Fundamentalists.

But then, which Christian Fundamentalists? Which God? Or how about the Muslim take on God? Or a non Judeo-Islamic-Christian God? Or just the JW form of God? Which God are you arguing over?

I'll bet none of you are arguing over the same one because none of you have the same one in mind.

That is why this has lasted so long on this forum. You can't decide whether God lied or not, not because God lied or didn't or because it is a myth or not, but because each of you here involved believe in different things when you use the word "God," even if you are atheist or agnostic.

Your definitions are different. We might think we imagine the same thing when you say "chocolate" and I say "chocolate," but each of us has a very different experience with chocolate. Chocolate is my favorite food, but it might be something you despise. Someone else can take it or leave it. Therefore neither us has the same chocolate in mind when we hear or say or debate the subject "chocolate."

It is the same thing about "God."

This will make it harder about any subject respecting "God," let alone whether "God" lied to Adam and Eve.

Did "chocolate" lie to Adam and Eve? It depends on how you view "chocolate."

Jeffro

They get nitpicky, like Jeffro, over the wrong points.

You can’t help yourself can you. These snide little judgements of people who point out any little thing you get wrong. Please stick to good content and just say those nonsense parts to yourself.

Jeffro

That is why this has lasted so long on this forum. You can't decide whether God lied or not, not because God lied or didn't or because it is a myth or not, but because each of you here involved believe in different things when you use the word "God," even if you are atheist or agnostic.

By and large, most people in the thread have been talking about what the story actually says along with ‘in-universe’ speculation about the content of the story. It’s mainly been you that has strayed from that approach, albeit with mostly interesting material about the actual intent of the story (along with smatterings of judgemental condescension).

It’s not actually that useful to the original intent of the thread to point out that ‘God didn’t really tell the first lie because it’s just a story to teach a lesson’, which is just another layer of what you accused everyone else of doing. Which is fine. But don’t get high and mighty about it.

KalebOutWest

Jeffro:

You can’t help yourself can you. These snide little judgements of people who point out any little thing you get wrong. Please stick to good content and just say those nonsense parts to yourself.

The "snide little judgments" I learned from copying and pasting every comment you have made on this site into a computer.

And the "snide" comments you despise are generated via Google's Gemini AI.

They are actually based upon your very own.

I designed it so that every time you posted something contrary about me, I would have AI come up with something.

You are essentially being judgemental to your own self.

It gives a new meaning to the expression: Go f#@k yourself.

Enjoy.

Jeffro

the people and culture who wrote the story.

Strictly speaking, it is a derivative work adapted from the Babylonians, and the Jewish interpretations have been added later and do not fully represent the intentions of the original story.

Jeffro

KOW:

The "snide little judgments" I learned from copying and pasting every comment you have made on this site into a computer.
And the "snide" comments you despise are generated via Google's Gemini AI.
They are actually based upon your very own.

Sure. 😒 If that were true, it would make you even more petty. Particularly since you’ve made the comments about people other than me.

KalebOutWest

I only hate you Jeffro. Only you.

I love everyone else.

But the hate and the insults, are for your eyes only.

Love and kisses.

Jeffro

🤦‍♂️

Who told the first lie?

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