Are most people just plain stupid? (page 18)

patio34

Oxnard Hamster said something about would a person be offended if told that atheism is a stupid belief.

Just a quick point: atheism isn't a belief, it's an absence of belief in a god.

Pat

LittleToe

Just a quick point: atheism isn't a belief, it's an absence of belief in a god.

I disagree

Xena

Is't it a belief in the absence of belief then???

LittleToe

I don't know about anything else, but it's yesterday's news. It flies in the face of fashion

"Science is dead, long live the king!"

:Is't it a belief in the absence of belief then???

That doesn't really make sense to me... I'm not sure than anyone seriously bases their life on beliefs about absences of beliefs. But I think I understand what you mean: Isn't it a positive belief that god does not exist?

In some cases, yes, this is a true statement. If you asked me that question I'd have to admit that at this moment I have a positive belief that no gods exist based on lack of evidence.

The problem comes in when people claim that this is a belief system . It is not - it is no more a belief system than not believing in Unicorns or Elves. There is no one way for atheists and agnostics to live their lives - there is no code of conduct, no rules, no single belief system. The only thing they have in common is that they don't believe in any gods.

The only way I think a lack of belief in gods could be considered a belief system is if you focus only on the act of worship. In that case, the belief system (if you will) of an atheist is usually not to worship any gods. But this does not necessarily provide any other insight about the person outside of this context. He could be a great guy or scum. He could be a philanthropist or extremely niggardly. He could be a scientist or a burger flipper. He could even believe in New Age spirituality or some type of atheistic religion, such as Budhism. Maybe he's a Christian with some unorthodox view of the church?

In fact, I don't even think you can classify theism in general as a belief system - it's just a positive belief in god. When you get more granular, such as Christianity or Islam - then I don't see any problem classifying those as belief systems.

rem

Abaddon

Hi Stacey,

I went out with a South African girl who could be mistaken for a plain-looking sister of yours... I thought that with your last Avatar piccy and this one's more so.

Anyway, I think we agree that opinions often get treated like facts, as you illustrate.

I mean, the Bush and Blair administrations were of the opinion there were weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. On the basis this presented a clear and present danger, they invaded.

Now it looks like there was never anything remotely resembling the threat we were lead to believe existed.

Opinion and facts differed.

Obviously there are differing rules for evidence!

(the above is light-hearted fun -I just couldn't resist it, but I'd rather boil my tounge than have a discussion about WoMD on a Friday afternoon).

As for not being able to prove Astrology doesn't work... wrong!

In the UK a guy did an experiment where he did what his horoscope said he should (down to travelling to NYC to see an old schoolfriend because his horoscupe toild him to get in touch with an a dear old friend he'd lost contact with). His twin just did what he wanted to do. The results were rated by a panel of judges and the studio audience.

After a month he was rated as being worse off for following his horoscope. Not a totally seriouys experiment perhaps, but you can perform your own anywhere.

Just have a horoscope prepared for a nineteen random birhdates and one for each member of your test group (who should be people who don;t know about astrology). If 'horoscopes work' in terms of accurately describing someone then there should be more than a 5% chance someone chooses their own horoscope from the twenty as being the one that most accurately describes them.

You can also take say five horoscopes, one of which IS the date of the test subject's birth, cut them into different bits (like 'emotional life', 'work life' etc., scramble them up, and see if they pick the one that is an un-altered original as distinct from a scrambled fake; with five to choose from they should choose theirs more than 20% of the time.

Of course, you might decide not to bother, as I assure you if these simple tests had EVER been successful when administered competently, we'd have heard about them.

Rather than provide hardproof, the fans of astrology CHOOSE to believe an unverifiable supersticion that COULD be proved IF it worked.

It's the same with faith healing. Give me 500 people with the same disease at the same stage, divide them into three groups; one gets a real' faith healer, one gets a 'fake' faith healer, and the final one get nothing.

Each group should comprise equal numbers of people who are believers in faith healing, people who don;t believe, and people who are undecided.

The 'fake' faith healers would be selected on the basis of being able to duplicate convincingly a 'rea' faith healers performance.

At the end of the day if faith healing works, then all three classes of test subject in the 'real' faith healing group would show a better outcome than the other two groups.

This test is easy and would probably show that people who believed in faith healing did better regardless of whether they had a 'fake' healer or a 'real' healer. I say probably, as once again people who belieev in faith healing CHOOSE to believe an unverifiable supersticion that could be proved IF it worked.

Bradley loves making sweeping statements and he's been bit on his butt and would love this to end.

It's a hard knock life; we've (almost) all been there!

patio34

Just a quick point: atheism isn't a belief, it's an absence of belief in a god.

Depends what you mean by 'belief'. Little Toe feels that someone having a strong opinion that is not 100% verifiable has a belief (correct me if I'm wrong LT); thus atheism is a belief to him. Other people might choose different spins on the word 'belief'.

MIrriam's says

Main Entry: be·lief
Pronunciation: b&-'lEf
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English beleave, probably alteration of Old English gelEafa, from ge-, associative prefix + lEafa; akin to Old English lyfan
Date: 12th century
1 : a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2 : something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3 : conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence

Under 1., you're right, under 2., you're right, under 3., he's right.

But now, it's Friday, it's 5.30, and I am making like a tree and leafing...

logansrun

Stacey,

I don't wish to go round and round trying to defend myself to you over the internet. I am well aware of the difference between the statements: "Bush is a great president" and "The earth is in an elliptical orbit around the sun." You keep putting words in my mouth and are quite adept at making the sweeping generalizations you accuse me of.

Like it or not the general consensus of most scientists, philosophers and social advocates when it comes to the beliefs I mentioned (creationism, astrology, militant nationalism) would be that they are incorrect, incoherant or just plain dangerous. Are they stupid? Yes, I believe they are. Is that my opinion? Yes -- but an opinion based on factual evidence and historical precedence. There are "good" opinions and "bad" opinions; opinions based on substance and reason and opinions based on junk science, ignorance and hatred. I suggest you try and understand this difference.

Oh, and my comment that you are a "bright girl" was meant as no offense to those of the female gender.

Bradley

greatteacher

Stacy,

Good, you know what a fact is because when you stated that Brad was "confusing facts and opinions", I wasn't sure. He was not.

Stacy Smith

Poor Bradley so obssessed with being right, life must be difficult. I would love to see your scientific evidence about militant nationalism. Just love to see that. Now run off like a good boy and find it for me and then make sure to PM me after posting here so I don't miss anything important.

Abbaden I am not defening astrology by any means. As we've both said we all put different value on evidence presented on any topic. Usually evidence that supports our views is given the most weight.

Are most people just plain stupid?

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