But, I want to know. Do you consider most people as simple sleepwalkers through life not paying much attention to reason, logic, science, history and a desire to understand? I find ignorance all around me it seems -- astrology, new-age beliefs, creationism, militant nationalism, irrational views of self and others. I don't believe this is some innate or genetic quality about people, mind you, just the way their life has played out and the choices they have made.
Sigh, all right, [edited]. Time for the big silverback (reluctantly me) to slap down on the annoying little squeaker (that would be you, bradley) and teach him some damn manners.
Obviously I'm not saying that people who read their horoscope for the sheer fun of it without taking it seriously are stupid. You insinuate that. Straw man argument.
No, I do not insinuate that. You directly made "astrology" (a blanket term covering horoscopes) the equivalent of "ignorance." You also included, as examples of what you term "ignorance": New Age Beliefs, creationism, militant nationalism, and a vague "irrational views of self and others". No straw man here. What actually happened, bradley, is that you made a statement that was too all-encompassing,and then suddenly got your ass kicked when somebody called you on it. Suck it up, admit you made a mistake, refine your statement, and let the process of debate continue.
(Czar pats Bradley on the head, kindly, teaching the younger ape the skills he needs to survive in the Internet jungle. But it seems the younger ape is stubborn, and will require further correction from the alpha male)
Um, where did I say that ALL believers are stupid? I said that creationists and Christian fundamentalists may fall under that category but they do not encompass the totality of all believers in God or religion. This is also a straw man argument.
Hm. In the beginning, when Bradley (that would be you, Logansrun) went on his evolutionary / materialist/ rationalist hissy fit, he said, not that Christian fundamentalists are stupid. He said that creationists were stupid. This is not a straw man, Bradley, because I am not responding to a non-existent argument. YOU CLAIMED THAT CREATIONISM IS AN EXAMPLE OF "IGNORANCE." You claim that ALL those who study astrology are "ignorant". Further, in the title to this thread, you claimed that "stupidity" is evidenced by most humanity - since most humanity do not fall under the title of "creationist" it follows that anyone who practices any of the things you listed as "ignorance" is also "stupid". Most humanity believes in some aspect of those things. New Age beliefs are just recycled Eastern philosophies, so anyone who subscribes to Buddhism, Taoism, or Confucianism is also showing their "woeful" adherence to "ignorance." That would also be the majority of humanity.
Now, [deleted], if you want to back away from that blanket statement and maybe refine it a little, that is an acceptable part of the debate process. When your position as stated has been overrun, it's time to fall back and regroup. But you have to admit that you abandoned it, in order to be fair to the process.
I believe in evolution because of a prepoderance of evidence points unmistakeably in that direction. It is a robust and scientifically sound theory. Will certain specifics about evolutionary theory change due to new evidence? Most certainly. Will the whole of modern biology fall from place? Extremely unlikely.
I would suggest, since the title of this thread dismisses any other idea as inherently "ignorant" and "stupid." you are defending evolution because it fits in with your pre-existing worldview. It's okay, little ape, everyone does it. Even us big tough silverbacks. I defend God's intervention because it fits in with my worldview. But to claim that evolution has a preponderance of scientific evidence backing it up is to ignore the way that a simple experiment can change all of science. All we have in favor of evolution is circumstantial evidence, the fossil record, etc. However, since evolution is a process, fossils that could be the result of that process are merely secondhand evidence. There is no proof as to HOW they attained the shape they did.
The issue I take with your statement is going to focus on the word, "unmistakeably." Evidence never points unmistakeably in any direction. You are underestimating humanity's ability to be clueless, even you sharp, "unignorant" materialist types.
For instance, Louis Pasteur took what was existing evidence, (bacteria in culture) and proved that spontaneous generation was a false idea. Bacteria require other bacteria to produce them. A sterile solution isolated from the air will not breed bacteria on its own. All it took to overthrow this prevailing "scientific" concept that had reigned since Aristotle was a simple experiment that nobody had thought of yet. I propose that evolution is a theory based completely on observation, awaiting an experimenter to completely overthrow it. I simply cannot buy the random manipulation of the genetic code by radiation and viral integration as an acceptable explanation for all that humanity is and will be. I suggest that there is an explanation we simply have not found yet. My gut instinct says it relies heavily on God, your gut instinct says it is random. Time will tell, possibly after we are both dead.
Anecdotes don't count for much in debate.
Is that why you don't have any? Or have you just not been around long enough to accumulate any good stories? [edited]
Gee, anyone get the impression czar has taken this way too seriously? And, where did I say all types of "spirituality" are stupid and to be dismissed? I believe that is another....straw man
All right then. Just calling it a straw man doesn't make it so. What kinds of spirituality does Bradley approve of for general consumption? What can we believe without looking "stupid" to you? Please, discuss, reveal the truth, Bradley?
Arrogance on anybody's part pisses me off. Dogmatic assertions get me riled up. And apparently, from my inbox, I'm not the only one who thought you were getting away with too much dogmatism. This is a discussion and debate forum, Bradley. You posted on a topic without thinking, and got yourself run over by good argumentation and an open-minded position. You just can't always get away with that kind of stuff, Bradley. I personally don't expect to - in fact, I enjoy debate. Since Greek times, it's been the primary process by which we can refine our concepts and minds.
So, respond Bradley. It's nothing personal. I like you just fine. But if you throw stones at me or my beliefs, then I'm gonna [edited]!
Again, it's just debate. Nothing personal.
(The big silverback puts young Bradley-ape down and wipes his tears away, reassuring young Bradley-ape that he is still part of the group.)
Love,
CZAR
