This is horrible.... (page 6)

talesin

Patio and blacksheep

PLEASE

I know both of you to be smart women who care deeply about what is going on in the world right now, albeit coming from opposite ends of the political spectrum.

If we were all sitting in the kitchen, having a coffee or a drink, and chatting, this would NOT be happening. To quote from Cool Hand Luke,

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

It's so hard to communicate what we really feel in writing, with short comments. PLEASE step back, take a deep breath, and realize that we are all in this together. Let's give each other some comfort and support right now.

It's difficult to see everyone at each other's throats right now. It hurts my heart that anyone would feel I hate Americans, or Iraqis or whoever the hell it is. And it hurts me to see the two of you getting so upset with each other.

The points are NOT getting across. We are all too upset right now.

my two

talesin

Edit to say: {{{{{blacksheep}}}}} {{{{{patio}}}}}

patio34

Hi Blacksheep,

Thanks for your reply. If a person were hit and killed by a drunk driver, would it be wrong to say he wasn't wearing a seat belt? It seems to me that people want to know all the facts, even if they're unpleasant.

Your tragic scenario of a rape of your sister is very sad. I would say nothing about that.

But, can't you see that there are people who may be killed over all of this and that all the facts should be known. I'm not even saying they make a difference, because I don't think they do. It was a brutal murder. Period.

Again, I don't agree that bringing up extra facts in the case should offend people. This is a free country and we have a right to know the facts.

Pat

blacksheep

I appreciate your words, Talesin. But I feel as if my sister has been brutally raped and murdered, and subtle and OVERT attempts are being made to blame HER. As opposed to the the REAL culprits.

It is classic blame the victim and it is totally WRONG. Direct your anger against the people who DID this. Not against the victim.

patio34

Okay, Talesin. Thanks for the post and I agree that these are tense times. Especially where you said:

It's difficult to see everyone at each other's throats right now. It hurts my heart that anyone would feel I hate Americans, or Iraqis or whoever the hell it is. And it hurts me to see the two of you getting so upset with each other.
The points are NOT getting across. We are all too upset right now.

It's unfortunate, but I guess to be expected.

I've said what I really think and believe and Blacksheep has too. I'm going to let it rest now. It doesn't need to be discussed further, it seems to me, because we've both said what we think. We disagree and that's okay with me. Thanks for the compliment to both of us as being bright and I've already said that to Blacksheep.

Hugs,

Pat

wasasister

Sadly, Onacruise may be right on this issue. Perhaps it's not possible for people to discuss such terror without shouting at each other and you should simply lock or delete the threads as they appear.

I was hurting when I posted my thread last night - the first topic I've posted in a very long time. When I'm sad and alone, I sometimes wish I could share those feelings with my good friends, and since I left the JW's, those friends have largely disappeared.

It's really too bad we can't turn to each other for comfort and understanding when something like this upsets our very core. It's pathetic that our response is to begin shouting at each other about what we should or should not believe.

I guess those hooded murderers and the abusive prison guards have set the tone for the rest of us. Let's hate and keep on hating. MY SIDE FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Wasa - deep sigh

blacksheep

But, can't you see that there are people who may be killed over all of this and that all the facts should be known.

Well, if you are suggesting that civilians shouldn't step foot in Iraq or anywhere in the middle east I agree with you. It's too late for that for Nick Berg.

But beyond that what irks me is the utter refusal of the (liberal) press to go into detail about each and every one of the "abused" prisoners in Abu---I think that their histories would be very telling if people did. How many women did those abused people "oppress, rape, abuse?" How many of the guys being humiliated actually murdered people, American's, Iraqi's, or otherwise?

We take our lifestyle for granted. We are afforded the most dignity and respect, few nations can comprehend. The sniffing around at what Nick Berg's shortcomings and "ill made" decisions were while totally portraying these "victims" at Abu frankly, is UNFAIR.

SixofNine

Well, if you are suggesting that civilians shouldn't step foot in Iraq or anywhere in the middle east I agree with you.

Damn! You changed your tune on that one quick!

blacksheep

Thanks for your reply. If a person were hit and killed by a drunk driver, would it be wrong to say he wasn't wearing a seat belt? It seems to me that people want to know all the facts, even if they're unpleasant.

But the two don't compare. Sure, it's relevant to know that someone wasn't wearing a seatbelt in an UNPREDICTABLE accident. If Princess DI would have been wearing a seatbelt, she might have been alive today.

But wearing a seatbelt to protect you is a very differnet scenario than going to another country to find work, a country that was being occupied by your own Nation's forces. Who can forsee that you will be taken hostage as a civilian and mercilessly beheaded while a camcorder is running? What societies DO THIS???? I can blame my sister for her brutal murder becaue she didn't take all the precautions that I stated above. But the fact remains that it is the PERPETRATORS" FAULT. Never take the focus off of that; otherwise you are LOST.

As I said, the bottom line is that, after this experience, I think civilians should have NOTHING to do with Iraq or any nation in the middle east. They have NO compunction at murdering innocent civilians.

Think about this: do you think the same thing would happen here in the US.? Picture Bush in the Oval office, running a cam corder while he saws off the head of an Iraqi civilan, and holds up his head proclaiming: Blessed be Jesus Christ!!!!! ??

Think about that. And then, think about what, exactly in this world we are facing with Islamofacsism. We seem to be confused about who, exactly, the bad guys ARE.

blacksheep

Damn! You changed your tune on that one quick

How so? Never had the remoted desire to go to this third world, oppressive to women, tolerate murders by Sadaam- because-we-have-no-back-bones-and-are- brainwashed-by-Islam-and-are-living-in-standards-comparable-to-12th-century-heathens nations.

The sooner we crush the enemy and get out of this god-forsaken area (and note--I'm an agnostic!) area the better. No more bloodshed of our sons and daughters. They aren't worth it.

SixofNine

As I said, the bottom line is that, after this experience, I think civilians should have NOTHING to do with Iraq or any nation in the middle east.

Nick Berg, political and cultural learning experience for BlackSheep. May he rest in peace.

This is horrible....

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