The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen (page 17)

JWdaughter

Just be nice to other and see how it all shakes out in the end:)

Jonathan Drake

Who defines what is and isn't religion?

The dictionary:

a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects:
the Christian religion; the Buddhistreligion.

Make it against the law to agree upon a set of beliefs as a group or under any man- no more religion.

If you think you can stop people vying for power by saying "OK, please stop vying for power" then I suggest you go and talk to everyone in the middle east.

No, I was suggesting being imprisoned and/or fined for the offense- not a polite request. A cop doesn't just pull you over and politely ask you to stop speeding.

OrphanCrow

No, I was suggesting being imprisoned and/or fined for the offense- not a polite request. A cop doesn't just pull you over and politely ask you to stop speeding.

Whooooaaa.

Totalitarian control.

Thought crime police.

Imprisonment.

"Don't think like that...other people are thinking like that."

Group think outlawed.

Are you really proposing that, JD? Seriously?

Simon

I think the notion that this would be even remotely workable is extremely naive.

It assumes everyone is a rational and reasonable person. If they were then there wouldn't be a need for it in the first place - there would be no religion.

myelaine

dear JD...

I referred to our exchange through PM's not these public posts. I said this:

"As much as you keep saying that the koran confirms the scriptures as far as you can see. The koran denies the Fatherhood of God and the Sonship of Jesus. The koran denies that Jesus or anyone for that matter can or did die as propitiation for the sins of mankind. The koran completely ignores the meaning behind the jewish feasts and sacrificial system which was instituted as a means to lead people to Christ eventually (not as simply someone who is called Messiah or Christ or even the Word but, for WHAT He was sent to do which is much more than a Messenger or Prophet). Because the koran ignores this basic foundation and denies the crucifixion and denies the Fatherhood and Sonship it doesn't confirm the scriptures at all.

Because God is reasonable and He askes us to come reason together, what reason might He have to gather together another group of people around mohammad if His purpose was to gather all men to Jesus? (According to the bible)...you see the koran doesn't lead people to Jesus...the koran is emphatic that it is Allah and mohammad who are the ones who should be listened to. All this at a time when the gospel had been preached in that area. It would be perfectly reasonable of God to reiterate to this group that they should turn to Jesus for salvation because that IS God's will and His purpose for sending Jesus but the koran doesn't say any such thing."

...while you answered, yet again, that the koran does use the words Christ and Messiah and you also said the reason for the koran might be that at that time the Church suppressed the bible. You missed the thrust of my argument. The koran uses the titles Christ and Messiah but in the koran these titles don't carry the weight they do in the NT. There's NO meat...just bones. AND to answer to your suggestion that the koran was inspired because the church suppressed the bible...well, I did when asking you why you thought it came about...if it was inspired because the bible was suppressed then it would have most certainly carried the same message of salvation as the bible...but it doesn't, it is in it's entirety anti-salvation. It stands in opposition to the NT Christ and Messiah. It seems to me that the koran arriving when it did is more the MO of a satanic opportunist.

love michelle <3

yeah, your last post is anti-Christ too. You would like to see christians living in fear of being seen gathering together to worship God in freedom, love and unity...you want exactly the opposite of what Jesus prayed for.

Viviane

Make it against the law to agree upon a set of beliefs as a group or under any man- no more religion.

myelaine

James 5:19-20

<3

Jonathan Drake

I'm going to ignore the circular Quran argument we are having, because it does say christs death was equal to Adam. And once again, it does say it is meant to be taken along with the bible, thus all of the "meat" is already established by the bible. but we may as well stop talking about it now.

As as far as the antichrist accusation goes...

you want exactly the opposite of what Jesus prayed for.

I do not want the opposite of it. However, as the bible clearly explains, Christianity was always going to be corrupted by the man of lawlessness mentioned in 2 Thessalonians. There is no entity around today that calls itself christian that isn't neck deep in evil and disgusting things. They are all responsible for harming people to varying degrees. If you think, honestly, that these groups and organizations represent christs interests as they are portrayed in the bible- then I think the one with the skewed ideas is most certainly not me.

i was not proposing an end to Christianity. I was proposing the world would be a better world without religion. There is no religion just called, "Christian." Only many different denominations there of- all doing horrible things.

as far as the other posts, I really don't see how it's totalitarian to make it illegal to provide an environment that fosters moleststions of children, robbery, fraud, and undue influence of children against education, as well as anti gay movements, anti-contraceptive teachings that foster poverty and force children to be born in terrible circumstances..... I could go on. Personally, I don't see a problem with outlawing something that fosters all the above and more. How can anyone really have a problem with that? I know it's not something likely to ever work or even be feasible but is it really so stupid to think it should happen in the face of all this?

myelaine

dear JD...

the koran may say that Christ's death is equal to adam (?) but the bible doesn't say that. The bible says that Jesus is the second adam...buying back what adam lost.

How can the death of Christ be equal to adam when His death on the cross was able to facilitate for mankind the repurchase of ALL that adam lost, including his life?

For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 1 Corinthians 15:21

YOU'RE the one stuck in the circular koran argument!!

ie: the koran says this, I believe the koran to be inspired, therefore the koran says this. In my arguments I'm trying to help you see that the koran doesn't say what you'd like to think it says.

love michelle <3

Jonathan Drake

@myelaine

yes, exactly. We are agreeing. If you understand the ransom and how it works then you inderstand Jesus death was equal to Adams death... I'm not sure how we are not agreeing here. Adams death lost perfection and ushered in sin, Jesus death was equal to adam and bought mankind back from imperfection and sin... That's the entire point of the ransom. And that's what BOTH the Quran and bible say.

5) So, who paid Adam’s RANSOM?
Jesus (name means Savior) paid the ransom for Adam, because Jesus was sent as the Christ from heaven as a perfect man (John 6:38) and he kept himself 'holy, harmless, and separate from sinners' (Hebrews 7:26).
Jesus gave himself up as a RANSOM for Adam - died in place of Adam - and thereby became the Savior of Adam and all of his offspring, the human race. This RANSOM is the means by which God could justly release Adam (and all mankind) from the death sentence of Eden.

Above taken from:

http://christianityoriginal.com/mp/index.php/good/ransom

Only using this as an effort to explain for me, hoping it is articulated better. Romans 5:12-19 is all about explaining how christs death is equal to adam.. It had to be in order for his death to be a propitiatory sacrifice. Is this not clear?

"God said, 'Jesus, I will take you back and raise you up to me: I will purify you of the disbelievers. To the Day of Resurrection I will make those who followed you superior to those who disbelieved. Then you will all return to Me and I will judge between you regarding your differences." [3:55]

"In God's eyes Jesus is just like adam..." [3:59]

elsewhere in this thread I showed where Jesus is said to have died on a cross and been raised to heaven in the Quran, and here it says he was just like adam to God- which is the entire point of his being the ransom...

at at this point if you don't see it its just a refusal to do so, we should just agree to disagree. We don't have to see eye to eye on everything.

i will concede a point of my own making here however, the Quran states Jesus Father as the judge in that verse where the bible says the Father judges no one at all. So that seems a contradiction. Despite this however, Jesus was equal to Adam, and died and was resurrected in both, and people are told to have faith in this and believe in both.

The best reasonable, rational, intelligent discussion on religion I've ever seen

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