Posts by Narkissos

9

Peter in prison in Acts 12:1-17

by Leolaia in

according to lapham, the story of peter imprisoned by herod agrippa in acts 12:1-17 bears striking similarities with the story of jesus' death and resurrection and the story of peter's martyrdom in the martyrdom of peter (later incorporated into the acts of peter).

this raises the intriguing possibility that the original story in acts was of peter's martyrdom in judea at the hands of agrippa, followed by a resurrection appearance and/or angelophany.

the "prison" in acts would refer to peter's tomb.

Narkissos

This goes against conventional wisdom, which views John as mostly writing allegory and Luke as attempting to write history. Yet Luke was the bigger user of this crucial symbolic language.

I guess the "best" in "Luke" is not really "Lukan". "Luke", as the NT Deuteronomist as it were, is certainly responsible for the cheap historical frame which unfortunately made up the basis for every current catechism, obscuring many original traditions. But he does also record, with little redactional effort (less than Matthew) and consequently much authenticity, a number of those very original traditions (Q for instance, but many others too) even when they were at odds with his general project. I sometimes wonder to what extent he understood what he was writing...

About John, it is quite obvious that the resurrection motif was not essential (understatement intended) to his theology. As even R.E. Brown remarked, the Johannine Jesus does not really need resurrection (same thing with Hebrews). This may account for the relatively scarce use of egeirô / anistèmi...

20

Will Jehovah Forgive Your Sins If You Don't Confess To Men?

by Englishman in

why is it that jw's insist that you must confess your serious sins to earthly men in order to "put yourself right" with jehovah?.

small isolated sins don't seem to matter much.

however, there does seem to be a finely drawn line that demands confession to elders.. interestingly, once that finely drawn line has been crossed that demands confession to elders, so too has the line of what constitues a disfellowshipping offence.. for example, occasional masturbation is just about one side of that line, do it while someone talks dirty to you and you've crossed that line and entered the disfellowshipping area.

Narkissos

But here's the rub: Because the WT insist that confession is done through the elders, the sinning JW may keep quiet about his shortcomings to everyone because of his fear of being DF'd. If the witness confesses to anyone who is not an elder, that person then has a responsibility, under JW law, to grass him up to the elders.
Now you have a very unhappy dubby who not only is suffering from guilt, but severe repression too.
Not a good mix for maintaining one's mental health IMHO.

That was exactly the "pastoral" concern of the Commentary on the Letter of James I quoted earlier in this thread. Guess by the Brooklyn repression of the early 80's, which led to disfellowshipping the author of this text as well as Ray Franz shortly afterwards, the WT missed one of its last opportunities to become, at least, a more humane religion.

11

23 psalm

by galaxy7 in

jw
friends

in the 23 psalms where he says;.

and i will dwell in the house of the lord forever.

where did david think he was going to dwell?.

Narkissos

As many (even Orthodox) commentators admit, the suscriptions ascribing the Psalms to David or anybody else are very late and hardly provide any clue to the original context...

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/66912/1.ashx

7

Achieving Salvation

by desib77 in

jw
friends

the other night, i had a couple of pastors over to try to answer some questions i had.

they came prepared to "save me" and even tried to do so.

tonight i bought a book that mentioned being saved by accepting the work of christ and asking jesus to save me.

Narkissos

As a good Bible reader, I spontaneously associated a number of Bible expressions, including "being born again", to the personal experience which eventually led me out of the JWs. Incidentally, most of this experience occurred to me right in Bethel, without any contact with any other religion.

When I later got in touch with Evangelicals, they were quite surprised I could have had such an experience "alone" (it was not alone actually, some JW friends were involved). I was surprised that any genuine personal experience could result of an organized process, such as a Billy Graham show (I even attended one...).

People's experience and way of telling it differ (according to their cultural and social environment). We all know here how fashioning one's experience after the expectation of any group is mind- and life-trapping. Never forget that religious formulas, such as being "born again" or "saved", are nothing but metaphors (as is any word in language except the verb "to be", as Derrida says)...

5

JW deterrent

by JH in

.

Narkissos

LOL!

(On an xJW's door it'd be written: souvenir of the last CO's visit)

20

Jesus Christ - The man who was raised from the dead

by hooberus in

this is the fourth thread in a recent series of posts on the fact that jesus christ is still a man.. the watchtower claims that "the man" jesus christ did not raise from the dead, but remained forever dead (they teach that he was recreated as an angel).

the bible however shows that it was a "man" whom god hath raised from the dead.

"because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Narkissos

Hooberus:

Not that I would defend in any way the JW doctrine, but I still disagree with your "man" vs. "angel" logic for the sake of intellectual honesty.

As an example of very poor Biblical interpretation, the WT identifies Jesus with the archangel Michael. But it is not quite the same as identifying him with any unqualified "angel". Contrary to the general Jewish and Christian tradition (due to its ignoring the extracanonical writings which belong to the background of the NT), the WT affirms there is only one archangel: so his nature is really unique. In this perspective JWs can accept easily (without much distorsion) the texts about the superiority of the Son over angels (e.g. Hebrews). Whatever the exact nature they ascribe to this "Archangel-Son", they do combine it in their own simplistic way with a measure of "humanity". For instance, to use their vocabulary, they don't say he "materialized" (as the "angels" are supposed to have done before the Flood), but that he became flesh and was born as a man. In their own rudimentary theology they say "Jesus will be a good king because he has been a man", implying that he keeps something of his humanity after his spiritual resurrection. So the argument "either man or angel" opposed to their doctrine is about as honest, IMO, as the argument "either man or God" opposed to a Trinitarian.

9

Peter in prison in Acts 12:1-17

by Leolaia in

according to lapham, the story of peter imprisoned by herod agrippa in acts 12:1-17 bears striking similarities with the story of jesus' death and resurrection and the story of peter's martyrdom in the martyrdom of peter (later incorporated into the acts of peter).

this raises the intriguing possibility that the original story in acts was of peter's martyrdom in judea at the hands of agrippa, followed by a resurrection appearance and/or angelophany.

the "prison" in acts would refer to peter's tomb.

Narkissos

I think it would be an interesting study to just look at all the cases of anistemi in the NT and see where it is theologically loaded in otherwise prosaic contexts.

I've done my homework!

Concentrating on Gospels-Acts, taking into account anistèmi and egeiro (both can mean "raise", only the second can mean "awaken"), and eliminating (1) the explicit meaning "resurrection" (except in miracle variants) and (2) the occurrences where the subject is an enemy (the priests, the pharisees), I get the following list:

Matthew 1:24; 2:13,14,20,21; 3:9; 8:15,25,26; 9:5,6,7,9,19,25; 11:11; 12:11; 17:7; 25:7;

Mark 1:31,35; 2:9,11,12,14; 3:3; 4:27,38; 5:41,42; 7:24; 9:27; 10:1,49; 14:42;

Luke 1:39,69; 3:8; 4:16,38,39; 5:23,24,25,28; 6:8; 7:16; 8:54,55; 10:25; 11:7,8; 13:25; 15:18,20; 17:19; 22:45,46; 24:12,33;

John 5:8; 7:52; 11:29,31; 13:4; 14:31;

Acts 1:15; 3:6,7,22; 5:6; 7:37; 8:26,27; 9:6,8,11,18,34,39; 10:13,20,23,26; 11:7,28; 12:7; 13:16,22; 14:10,20; 15:7; 22:10,16; 26:16,30

Italics: revelatory dream story

Underlined: raise children to Abraham from the stones

Bold: miracle stories

Highlight color: Jesus awakened/raised by the disciples on the sea

Bold italics: Conversion story (Matthew/Levi, Saul, Cornelius)

Red: raise (a prophet, a king)

Bold underlined: raise / save (a sheep)

Italics underlined: revelatory vision (Transfiguration)

Bold italics underlined: parable.

I think in many cases the overtones are quite inescapable. This in turn sheds light on the kind of (religious, mystagogical, not "historical") text we are dealing with.

About Acts 12:1ff, I just thought the parallel story of 16:25ff (Paul in prison) might also be brought into the picture, counterbalancing the study of this text in the diachronical perspective of Petrine tradition... At least the opening of gates is a common motif to both (didn't Peacefulpete bring that up in some previous thread?)

20

Jesus Christ - The man who was raised from the dead

by hooberus in

this is the fourth thread in a recent series of posts on the fact that jesus christ is still a man.. the watchtower claims that "the man" jesus christ did not raise from the dead, but remained forever dead (they teach that he was recreated as an angel).

the bible however shows that it was a "man" whom god hath raised from the dead.

"because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Narkissos

Hooberus,

OK I'll make my question clearer: where did the WT apply the qualification "angel" to the resurrected Jesus?

12

Keep It Zipped

by onacruse in

endorsement

s omeone writes an anonymous letter to the watchtower as follows: ?

the golden age recently published an article entitled ?that delusion called ?love?

Narkissos

LOL! I remember the "wide open door" policy was still in force in Bethel 20 years ago... (probably still is).

But maybe it was common American view of "decency" back in the 30's. Remember, in Orson Welles' Citizen Kane, the "singer" girl says her landlord wants her to leave the door open if she receives a man in her room.

10

Heavens doors closed in 1935, PROVE IT, how do they calculate this ???

by run dont walk in

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/10/54426/788874/post.ashx#788874

a continuation of this thread,.

how do the jw's calculate 1935 and prove that heavens doors were closed ?????????.

Narkissos

As far as I know it was never explained as a foretold date by any "chronology"; it was just a convenient way for an authoritarian president in authoritarian times to keep a growing number of disciples in subjection and under control.