Jeffro

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Posts by Jeffro

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  32

  The King of the North as you Never Heard ity Explained Before

  by raymond frantz in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  https://youtu.be/w32nome-k20?si=a8bhxh5tjrkomgzq.

  rather than seeing the king of the north as the final opponent of god’s people, i propose that daniel 11 points to a completely different figure.

  while the watchtower society focuses on the struggle between these two kings, they overlook a third entity mentioned in verse 40, but let’s ready this verse first from the new world translation.

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  Jeffro

  🤦‍♂️ Not this again.

  King of the North: Seleucid Dynasty.

  King of the South: Ptolemaic Dynasty.

  i realise some people find it exciting to pretend the story is relevant to today, but that is simply a fantasy.
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  26

  Jesus the Maintenance Man

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

  most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

  we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

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  Jeffro

  KalebOutWest frequently superimposes the views of modern (usually, secular) Jews onto ancient Judaism. This frequently involves cognitive dissonance, which results in statements such as:

  There is general Jewish practice, but there is no and never has been a single mainstream Jewish dogma ... Philo's teachings were not accepted by mainstream Judaism

  A substantial number of modern Jews view the stories of characters like Abraham as allegorical, and KOW would have us believe that that was always the case (though reasonably a third to half of modern Jews believe he was an actual historical person, with considerable variation about whether it matters). However, at the beginning of the Achaemenid era, the Jews needed to establish their cultural identity to the Persians in order to affirm their traditional right to their land, and it would be meaningless to view Abraham only as an allegorical figure for that purpose (though their traditional belief that Abraham was an actual person is independent of whether he actually was).

  Similarly, the origins of Judaism derived from Canaanite religion point to an original belief that Yahweh was an actual local deity who actively controlled the weather along with the outcome of other events, and it was only later that the view shifted firstly to monotheism, and much later still to a more allegorical view among a subset of Jews.

  When challenged on the slightest thing— especially regarding ancient Judaism viewed through a lens of modern cultural Judaism—KOW resorts to various fallacies, usually taking the form of 'you're acting like a JW' (ad hominem, appeal to pride), 'you don't understand Jews' (appeal to tradition, hasty generalisation) or 'you're attacking me' (appeal to sentiment).
  
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  13

  JWs and Christmas

  by Rnadomchris83 in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i have been lurking around here for years.

  i'm not a witness, but my in-laws are.

  my wife grew up in it but was never baptized.

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  Jeffro

  Rnadomchris83:

  Anyway, her husband came over for the weekly visit last night. She stated that on (JW) TikTok there are talks of them allowing people to celebrate Christmas... Do you all think that will happen?

  Not likely. They adjusted their policies about shunning last year, which included a purportedly more lenient attitude regarding repentance (so long as the person still believes what the denomination teaches and isn't an 'apostate'). Some have interpreted that to mean you can 'just say sorry' after committing some 'sin' (such as celebrating Christmas), and that is probably the source of the claims about Christmas being 'allowed'.

  The most recent reference to Christmas in The Watchtower is from the October 2024 issue, page 15:
  

  
  PICTURE DESCRIPTION: After being helped to reason on the Scriptures, a Bible student decides to throw away his Christmas decorations.
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  12

  Are JW's brainwashed?

  by snare&racket in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know as a jw i concluded several times that i was not brainwashed as i was not some unautonimous zombie and had not experienced anything akin to.... .

  but in reality, brainwashing is a control of thought and ideas over a person and changing the way they think.

  in normal life such sentences are not used, in fact they are highly discouraged... .

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  Jeffro

  To that extent, then yes, JWs - along with most of the world's population - are brainwashed.

  JWs are subject to the colloquial form of brainwashing rather than the original usage, but the comparison to advertising is misleading. I can’t be bothered elaborating as I have limited time so GPT will do…

  Equating the undue influence Jehovah’s Witnesses experience with the effects of advertising oversimplifies the concept of “brainwashing” and fails to account for significant differences in scale, intent, and impact. While both involve efforts to shape beliefs or behaviours, they operate in fundamentally different ways and have distinct implications.

  Key Differences:

  1. Intensity and Control:

  Jehovah’s Witnesses are subject to a highly structured system that governs their thoughts, behaviors, and social interactions. This includes strict doctrines, regular meetings, and social consequences for noncompliance, such as shunning. These methods can create significant psychological dependency and emotional control.

  Advertising, while pervasive, generally operates as a more diffuse and impersonal influence, aiming to shape consumer preferences rather than enforce total allegiance or comprehensive lifestyle changes.

  2. Scope of Influence:

  The influence within Jehovah’s Witnesses extends beyond consumer choices to dictate moral, social, and spiritual aspects of life. Members are expected to conform to specific beliefs, avoid external influences, and adhere to strict rules.

  Advertising is typically limited to influencing purchasing decisions or brand loyalty. While it can affect broader societal norms, it does not exert the same level of control over an individual’s identity or social relationships.

  3. Voluntary Participation vs. Dependency:

  Jehovah’s Witnesses often face strong social or familial pressures to remain within the group, making it difficult to leave without significant personal loss. This creates a system of dependency that goes beyond mere persuasion.

  Advertising, while pervasive, does not create the same level of dependency. Individuals can generally resist or ignore ads without suffering severe personal or social consequences.

  4. Consequences of Influence:

  The undue influence on Jehovah’s Witnesses can result in lasting psychological harm, estrangement from non-conforming family members, and significant restrictions on personal freedom.

  The consequences of advertising are generally less severe, though it can contribute to consumerism and societal pressures related to materialism or body image.

  Conclusion: While both Jehovah’s Witnesses and advertising may involve forms of influence, they operate on different levels and with different goals. The structured, comprehensive control Jehovah’s Witnesses experience cannot be equated to the diffuse and commercially driven influence of advertising. Labeling both as “brainwashing” under the colloquial definition risks conflating undue influence with ordinary persuasion, obscuring the profound differences in their impact on individuals’ lives.
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  26

  Jesus the Maintenance Man

  by peacefulpete in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i posted on another thread what i thought was an interesting angle, seldom discussed regarding the role of god/logos in holding creation together and its maintenance.

  most moderns think of the universe as a self-perpetuating machine, but ancients looked to the god/s to ensure order continued and fertility returned year after year.

  we read, throughout the ot, of jews performing prescribed ritual and festivals to ensure god's blessing and providence.

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  Jeffro

  In its earliest form, Judaism evolved out of Canaanite religion, with an early conflation of El and Yahweh from the Canaanite pantheon. It is absolutely the case that the earliest foundation included the idea that God controls the weather, but that view diverged into the ideas described by KOW.
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  3

  Do JW's believe that TWO nations were created?

  by BoogerMan in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  one at pentecost 33 c.e.

  or were they "overlapping nations?".

  w02 8/1 p. 12 par.

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  Jeffro

  In 2013 they quietly translated away their awkward rendering of “the kingdom of the son of his love” as a separate kingdom that started at Pentecost. They still technically believe that that refers to a kingdom that the anointed were under starting from then.
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  12

  Are JW's brainwashed?

  by snare&racket in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i know as a jw i concluded several times that i was not brainwashed as i was not some unautonimous zombie and had not experienced anything akin to.... .

  but in reality, brainwashing is a control of thought and ideas over a person and changing the way they think.

  in normal life such sentences are not used, in fact they are highly discouraged... .

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  Jeffro

  There seems to be a perception that ‘brainwashing’ involves a moustachioed villain twirling a black and white spiral in front of someone tied to a chair and so ‘of course JWs aren’t brainwashed’. Back in reality, coercion and undue influence is much more subtle, and definitely in the JW toolbox.
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  88

  Annual Report

  by St George of England in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the latest report is now available for download on our favourite website!.

  george.

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  Jeffro

  Some years ago, the WT stated some 1 per cent were df'ed in a given year, and 1 per cent left for other reasons. And in any given population, 1 per cent die within a year. That sums up to 3 per cent. So from 2023 to 2024, there was a loss of - to be utterly exact - 258,751.

  There’s a few layers of compounded error in arriving at this purportedly ‘exact’ figure. The percentages given were only ever round figures and are not by any means recent.
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  88

  Annual Report

  by St George of England in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the latest report is now available for download on our favourite website!.

  george.

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  Jeffro

  Beth Sarim:

  Actually I think it could be called....""massaging the numbers"".

  Indeed. It seems they don’t understand that presenting a growth rate where there is no previous value would actually be an invalid division by zero and so growth should be left blank or otherwise similarly noted for new entries. (And Monaco apparently wasn’t counted as one of the 33 ‘other countries’ before, which hasn’t changed.)

  Their growth rate percentages are usually accurate, and demonstrably based on the average publisher figures and not the peak (which is less reliable and can count some members twice). But in their public FAQ page about how many JWs there are, they promote the peak figure instead.
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  88

  Annual Report

  by St George of England in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  the latest report is now available for download on our favourite website!.

  george.

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  Jeffro

  I noticed that they have started reporting activity for Monaco, and they call it a 100% increase over the previous year. That isn’t how math works.