Posts by Earnest

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Earnest

Nathan Natas : How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Interesting question, especially if angels are not in material form. This is discussed in Notes & Queries, Volume 63, Issue 1, where the writer suggests the query about how many angels might sit on a needle's point was first raised in the 16th century as a critique of medieval angelology because it makes a pun on ‘needless point’. He writes (p.385) :

… they fell to Disputations about the time of their Creation; whether it were before, or with the visible World; whether on the first day, or when they were created. Touching their Orders, what, and how many they were, their number, whether more fell or stood: whether they did occupie a place; and so, whether many might be in one place at one time; and how many might sit on a Needles point; and six hundred such like needlesse points.

I do believe I have seen some of those needlesse points discussed on this very thread.

But while many of these points are needless and mere speculation, the substance of the thread which relates to Jesus Christ being "the beginning of the creation (ktiseōs) by God" is relevant because it impinges on the shema : (Deuteronomy 6:4) "Jehovah our God is one Jehovah".

This expression "the beginning of the creation by God" (he arche tes ktiseos tou theou) echoes Proverbs 8:22 (LXX) "Lord [referring to Jehovah] created me the beginning of his ways" (kurios ektise me archen hodon autou), and so the meaning of this verse in Proverbs reflects on the meaning of the verse in Revelation.

There has been ample discussion whether ektise means created/made or possessed but I would suggest the most sensible course is to see how it is used elsewhere in the Bible. These are the places they occur in scripture, apart from Proverbs 8 and Revelation 3.

Mark 10:6 from [the] beginning of creation (arkhes ktiseos) ‘He made them male and female’.

Mark 13:19 a tribulation such as has not occurred from [the] beginning of the creation which God created (arkhes ktiseon hen ektisen ho theos)

Romans 1:20 For his invisible [qualities] are clearly seen from the world’s creation (ktiseos kosmou) onward

Romans 8:19 For the eager expectation of the creation (tes ktiseos) …

Colossians 1:15 He is … the firstborn of all creation (prototokos pases ktiseos)

1 Timothy 4:3 … commanding to abstain from foods which God created (ho theos ektisen)

Hebrews 9:11 when Christ came as a high priest … through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation (ou tautes tes ktiseos)

2 Peter 3:4 … all things are continuing exactly as from creation’s beginning (ap arkhes ktiseos)

Revelation 10:6 and by the One … who created (hos ektisen) the heaven and the … earth and the … sea

There seems to be a common theme.

It is true that the Hebrew word used in Proverbs 8:22 (qanani from qanah) conveys the idea that God acquires or possesses creation by virtue of his creative power (Genesis 14:19,22). So “formed me” (NLT), “possessed me” (ESV), “created me” (BSB), “made me” (ISV) are all acceptable translations of Proverbs 8. But we need to ask out of all these nuances of the word qanah, why did the Greek translators of Proverbs choose ektise which clearly means create if we are to accept how the Bible uses it. We simply don’t know. But it was this Greek translation which was read and used by the writers of the NT as can be seen by the allusion in Revelation 3:14. We also know this because the quotations of Proverbs 8 by various writers in the first four centuries almost always use this translation. See Ignatius, Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Athenagoras, Clement of Alexandria, Tertullian , Origen, Methodius, Dionysius , Augustine, Eusebius , Socrates, Theodoret, Athanasius, Gregory of Nyssa, Gregory Nazianzen, Basil, John of Damascus , Ambrose.

Certainly, some of these believed the trinity and argued for it at Nicaea and elsewhere. That is not my point. My point is that every one of these church fathers, both ante and post-Nicaea, accepted that Proverbs read that Wisdom was created AND they accepted this referred to Christ. Some of them also argued, as you have done, that it didn’t really mean that God created Christ or they said it only applied to his human existence. All of that is interpretation. And you are as entitled to your interpretation as much as anyone else. We come back to dancing on pins. But the clear statement of (LXX) scripture is that Wisdom was created, and so this reflects on the meaning of Revelation 3:14 as well. No wonder some good scribe (of Sinaiticus) wanted to remove it.

18

Meeting attendance

by Farmer Jim1 in

jw
friends

for those still in the organization what is your meeting attendance like these days?.

when i left in 2017 there were around 80 publishers and the average meeting attendance was 70..

Earnest

Vanderhoven7 : The last report by the coward organization was 70,000 are disfellowshipped a year, with 2/3 NEVER returning after freeing themselves from the cult and its false doctrine.

According to the news report on jw-dot-org (November 13, 2024) there was a "43.2 percent increase in those who returned to Jehovah, with 65,816 who were reinstated" in the 2024 Service Year Report. There is a thread on this here.

90

What is Your Favorite WT Lie?

by Sea Breeze in

i would like to start a thread on lies that the watchtower and their reps have told.

surely we all have one or two that truly sticks out in our memories, no matter how much we would like to forget.

my favorite wt lie: the reason they don't want to release the name of the "scholars" who worked on the new world translation is because they do not want to accept "glory and honor" from others.

Earnest

Sea Breeze : Simply being told what a student must accomplish in order to be invited to Oxford as a Rhodes Scholar, is certainly not the same as “being offered the privilege of going to Oxford or Cambridge in England under the Rhodes plan”

Since you (Sea Breeze) quoted from Franz's autobiography ((in the article “Looking Back Over 93 Years of Living” for the May 1, 1987, Watchtower magazine), I'm surprised at what you missed out. Franz went on to say :

I have never regretted that, shortly before the announcements by the educational authorities regarding the outcome of the examinations for the Cecil Rhodes Scholarship, I wrote a letter to the authorities and advised them that I had lost interest in the Oxford University scholarship and that they should drop me from the list of contestants. This I did even though my professor in Greek at the university, Dr. Joseph Harry, informed me that I had been chosen to receive it. [My italics]

As regards Franz's study of Greek at the University of Cincinnati, Franz writes in his autobiography :

To the continued study of Latin, I now added the study of Greek. What a blessing it was to study Bible Greek under Professor Arthur Kinsella! Under Dr. Joseph Harry, an author of some Greek works, I also studied the classical Greek. I knew that if I wanted to become a Presbyterian clergyman, I had to have a command of Bible Greek. So I furiously applied myself and got passing grades.

29

WT vs Norway - WT sends letter to the goverment saying they have now changed their practice on DF. Asks for their funding back

by liam in

disfellowshipping is slowly fading into the night.. last efforts to survive.. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1gh3ilq/wt_vs_norway_wt_sends_letter_to_the_goverment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button.

Earnest

Earnest : It could be genuine as these errors are not impossible but I think unlikely.

I have now received a copy of the letter from the Norwegian Ministry of Children and Families and can confirm it is genuine.

29

WT vs Norway - WT sends letter to the goverment saying they have now changed their practice on DF. Asks for their funding back

by liam in

disfellowshipping is slowly fading into the night.. last efforts to survive.. https://www.reddit.com/r/exjw/comments/1gh3ilq/wt_vs_norway_wt_sends_letter_to_the_goverment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button.

Earnest

St George of England : If this letter is genuine, did the WT Society make this blunder or is it the translator?

I noticed that blunder too, St George. It is in the "original" copy of the letter which makes me wonder whether the letter is genuine. The email address at the top left is also not normally shown in Watchtower letters to the Norwegian government. The signature is a bit different to Pedersen's usual signature (leaving out the 'n' in Jørgen). It could be genuine as these errors are not impossible but I think unlikely.

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Earnest

Blotty, the language in the Bible isn't unique in some way but was also used by the people contemporary with the writers. The numerous Greek papyri found at Oxyrhynchus (in Egypt) help us to understand how certain Greek words were used in the NT. When there is more than one meaning to a word then, of course, you have to understand it in context.

The Bible lexicon which you quote (Thayer's) says that in the Bible ktizo means "to create: of God creating the world, man etc" but it is also means in a figurative sense "to found [or build or make] a city" as at 1 Esdras 4:53 :

"...and that all who came from Babylonia to build [or, make] the city [κτίσαι τὴν πόλιν] should have their freedom"

171

Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine

by slimboyfat in

in an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.

this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.

the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.

Earnest

LXX Proverbs 8:22 (Vaticanus) (https://digi.vatlib.it/view/MSS_Vat.gr.1209, p.722)

LXX Proverbs 8:22 (Sinaiticus) (https://www.codexsinaiticus.org/en/manuscript.aspx)

εκτιϲεν (from ktizo) which Strong's concordance (https://biblehub.com/greek/2936.htm) describes as "2936 ktízō – properly, create, which applies only to God who alone can make what was "not there before" (Latin, ex nihilo, out of nothing, J.Thayer); figuratively to begin ("found"), especially what is habitable or useful."

59

Proof of two destinies for believers in the Bible, heavenly and earthly

by slimboyfat in

the jw idea that believers are destined either for heavenly life or for endless life on earth comes in for significant criticism by critics of various kinds.

even some groups, such as the christadelphians, who share belief in a future paradise earth, don’t share the view that some christians are destined for life in heaven.

yet there is surprisingly quite a lot of evidence in the bible for the existence of two distinct groups of believers.

Earnest

SheEatsDragons : That's too bad that you [Vienne] don't even have a copy of your own "mom's" obituary.

Since Vienne is a pseudonym (just like SheEatsDragons and FreeTheMasons and EasyPrompt) it's obvious she is not going to share her mum's obituary. She is entitled to the same privacy we all have on this platform. Even so, unless you have evidence that the original Vienne didn't die or that Annie isn't her daughter, you are sinking to a very low-level to criticise her because she doesn't produce her mother's obituary.

13

Does maths prove the bible is wrong?

by joey jojo in

there might be a few that find this post boring, because, you know - its maths.. i like maths but im not a mathematician or condsider myself any type of expert on the subject.. there is a branch of maths called propositional logic that is used widely in computers and computer programming that allows computers to make decisions based on certain conditions.

for example: if a condition exists, then do something.

like: if the a button is pressed, then the letter a will appear on the screen.

Earnest

Since we are discussing mathematics I should tell you about one of my favourite clerics, John Colenso, the first Bishop of Natal, 1853-1883. Prior to becoming a rector (in 1846) he had studied at Cambridge, got a first class in mathematics, had written manuals on algebra (1841) and arithmetic (1843), and had taught maths at Harrow and Cambridge. After he was appointed Bishop of Natal, which was then a British colony, he went over there, published the first Zulu grammar and English/Zulu dictionary, and established a missionary station.

His African students there asked him questions about Noah's Ark, the Flood, the crossing of the Red Sea, the Exodus etc which caused him to re-examine the Pentateuch and the book of Joshua. Being a mathematician he looked at the number of Israelites at the time of the Exodus and asked very pertinent questions whether this was possible, finally writing some volumes on The Pentateuch and Book of Joshua Critically Examined. Needless to say this created a bit of a scandal in England and you can read more about him here, but his work on the Pentateuch (linked above) is still well worth reading.

21

Is the JW version of The Lord's Supper really a Parody?

by Sea Breeze in

a black mass is a ceremony celebrated by various satanic groups.

it ... is intentionally a sacrilegious and blasphemous parody of a catholic mass.

- wikipedia.

Earnest

Sea Breeze : Jehovah's Witnesses can't wait for you to die

Funny thing to say when their whole raison d'être is to spread the good news that God is not wanting anyone to perish.