Posts by Awakened07

36

July 15 Study Edition

by StAnn in

i just read the first article in the july 15 study edition, entitled "the house-to-house ministry--why important now?

" i thought it was insane overall but i noticed that they seem to be reintroducing the "marking work.

" hadn't that belief been eliminated?.

I thought the more lenient "Jehovah will read hearts" was always a JW excuse not really endorsed in Watchtower literature? I think according to the WBTS, it's always been 'active JW or die', but individual JWs (me included back then) would of course not say this, but say "We can't tell for sure; I'm sure Jehovah will read hearts." ?

The separating work JWs did between sheep and goats became 'old light' in 1995, same year (same mag?) that the generation teaching took a turn as well.

Not sure they have the full overview of their own teachings anymore...

Soon, Jehovah's heavenly executional forces, represented by the six men with weapons, will destroy those who do not have the symbolic mark.

Always nice to be reminded of what a nice guy Jehovah is. The doctor you went to today and have been going to for years? Dead. His children? Dead. The children in your kid's kindergarten? Dead. The nice old lady you helped today? Dead. The health care worker dedicating his/her life to helping people in Africa? Dead. Everyone around you at work? Dead. 99,999% of the people of your town? Dead.

Dead dead dead dead dead dead dead.

Did I say dead?

Dead.

Slaughtered, even. Then eaten by birds and spat out.

Beautiful.

24

Judas Iscariot: Destiny or Fate?

by sacolton in

jw
friends

i've always wondered if judas really had a choice in his role of deceiving jesus for 30 pieces of silver.

did he really have any freewill?

since the scriptures had to be fullfilled, was his fate pre-determined by god?

Awakened07

What was there to "betray" anyway? The religious leaders had already decided they wanted Jesus dead. There was no shortage of witnesses to his activities. Why did they pay Judas 30 pieces of silver? Just to tell them which park Jesus would be hanging out in that night?
W

Hmm - for some reason, that thought has never entered my mind! -Following this thought, was there really a need for a 'betrayer' at all? Only thing I can think of is it says the pharisees were afraid of the people, so that would be a reason to take him alone at night time, but still. They didn't kill him right away (as they easily could have); they evidently felt they had enough on him to put him on trial. I could understand they wouldn't want to kill him in broad daylight in front of his followers, but he and his disciples were out and about all day long, so it shouldn't have been too hard to track them down without a 'betrayer' in order to put him on trial. And since it was a trial they wanted to send him to, they should feel justified in doing so even in front of his followers. Another thing is that he was paraded in front of 'the people' only a short time later, and then the tune was suddenly changed to "crucify, crucify!". Where were 'the people' that the pharisees had been so afraid of then, all of a sudden?

51

I re-entered the Matrix

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

recently i posted a thread that i no longer wish to take part in discussions here as i felt uncomfortable wt bashing.

however, i feel that i have to start posting if only from time to time as i am at a very different stage as i was only 4 weeks ago.

i know i haven't been 'disfellowshipped' from here, even though i've disagreed with forum rules recently or have i 'disassociated' myself from this board as i still feel myself drawn to it.. i'll try to be brief with this, but the content could be drawn out.. as some of you are aware i have been battling alcoholism or alcohol dependency as i prefer to call it now (thats another story).

Awakened07

Ok whenever i have made critism as to peoples actions, i have been told it's just the individual. These two examples however were being given from the platform.

How many things can one blame on 'fallible men', to totally excuse the organization, and still see it as God's mouthpiece? The Watchtower are not afraid to point out all the actions taken by other religions' clergy and members and say it dooms their entire religion, but why are those things not simply similarly the actions of 'fallible men'? Sure there is also a big difference in doctrine, but my point is that they are not slow to point out any wrongdoing on other religions' part which can be said to be caused by 'fallible men'.

How many flaws can God's own organization be allowed to have? Does He just not really care too much if they teach and/or do wrong things? If so, what's the point of having one organization?

By all means, go back the the matrix. But it doesn't seem like you'll be a happy, well adjusted JW over time, with the reservations you voice in your post. You can't openly criticize (in other words, have your own opinions on the matters) for too long before you'll again find yourself in trouble. And - you'll have to go out and preach the things you don't agree with to other people, because if you state your own private opinions and feelings about certain issues at the 'door', it won't take long before you'll find yourself corrected by well-meaning elders.

Of course meeting old friends etc. etc. will feel good at first, but I'm pretty sure that novelty will wear off.

All that said, I do understand what you mean, and I wish you good luck in whatever choice you end up making; it's your life to spend as you like. And I don't mean that in a sarcastic way or tone.

But think it over. There are many other paths to take.

54

How Long Did It Take You to Realize It Wasn't "The Truth"?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i see some posters still aren't 100% sure that the jehovah's witness religion might not be "the truth"....was there a moment when things became very clear for you regarding this religion?.

do you still think, maybe----jws aren't all that bad??

?.

Awakened07

Hmm... I grew up in it. Looking back, there must have been a whole lot of cognitive dissonance. On one hand I really believed we were 'right', and I really believed in Jehovah, but did I ever believe the WBTS had the 100% Truth? I don't think so.

My mother had real problems trying to study with me as a child, 'cause I would always start laughing. Could have been the cloth she had to wear on her head... but I think it went deeper than that(!).

The last ten years or so of being an active Witness, I started having real problems just sitting through meetings. Not because I would scoff at the teachings, but I started getting some real emotional problems, that I didn't understand where came from at the time. I thought perhaps I was starting to get a depression or some mental illness. I would sit at the meetings and feel like everyone's eyes were piercing me from all around. This made me sweat and breath heavily, tremble and sometimes get tears in my eyes. Most likely, it just looked like I really enjoyed the content of the talks... But inside I was in turmoil. I was frank and told people I had doubts. I was told this was perfectly normal, but that I should study and find the answers in the literature. Problem was, the answers weren't in the literature... I was then told perhaps I should ask an elder to study with me again, just to start over from scratch. This did not really sound too good to me, plus I had already tried to find the answers, so what more could an elder with the same literature do?

Turned out I was not going insane or suffered from depression at the meetings. It was just the cognitive dissonance taking it's toll on my brain. It was enough already. I knew I could not go out and preach to people, because I knew that I couldn't lie to them and tell them to believe certain things that I no longer believed in myself. So my service declined. And this of course exacerbated my problems. Suddenly my 'friends' didn't invite me as often, and I was left alone. Had nothing to talk to other Witnesses about, because my field service 'brag stories' were several months old, which would not do...

So - I took the plunge and searched - with trembling hands - for "Jehovah's Witnesses" on Google. And this time, I dared to click some links...

But, I was really shocked when I in the end found out the Watchtower had no qualms quoting authority figures out of context to make it seem like they agreed with them, when they most definitely did not. That was a slap in the face, because I actually did believe they would not lie like that. So that was one huge nail in the coffin for me. And that was not that long ago, actually. After that it's been one thing after the other.

So I would say it was a slow, probably life long process for me, but it ended with a 'bang' over perhaps only two years. I read CoC and other books of course, but CoC didn't have the huge impact on me I thought it would. But by all means - it made me realize and learn a few things that helped.

28

Do You Consider Yourself a "Bright?"

by XJW4EVR in

jw
friends

i have recently been exposed to this term, and i am currently doing research for a paper on this movement.

i am wondering if there are any on this board that would affirm this label for themselves.

Awakened07

I agree with the movement, but I also agree with Christopher Hitchens, who found it a "cringe-making proposal that atheists should conceitedly nominate themselves to be called 'brights.' "

The choice of the word 'bright', as I understand it, was not made in order to make 'opposers' 'dim' in comparison, but to choose a positive sounding word for the movement. Nevertheless, I feel it backfires. It causes division rather than brings people of different opinion closer.

The Brights movement is, as I understand it, not so much an organization, but an umbrella term for various (autonomous) people who have a naturalistic view of the universe and life. The 'movement' part first comes into play when it comes to being an organized effort to try and promote science and scientific thought and reasoning in the public domain, and also to promote acceptance for the naturalistic worldview. That part I agree with.

Just not too keen on the 'Brights' moniker.

It's been (jokingly?) suggested that those who have a supernatural worldview can go by the similarly positive moniker 'Super'.

I guess some agnostics in that case could call themselves 'Super bright'...

13

MARS!

by feenx in

jw
friends

i would think it takes a lot to flabbergast nasa scientists but apparently it's been done.

check the link :) .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7477310.stm .

Awakened07

Hm. Wonder what happens when we dig up the first martian fossil? That'd be fun.

15

-Are "apostates" more strict on WBTS doctrine than active Witnesses?

by Awakened07 in

jw
friends

or: "common responses to criticism, by active jehovah's witnesses", which i could also have called this topic.. .

-a video i just saw on youtube made by an active witness took me down memory lane a bit, and reminded me of how i used to think and respond to some common criticisms of the jws.

as i started writing this post, i had planned to put this person's thoughts point-by-point, but it turned out he was pretty much only covering one common critisism.

Awakened07

But is this a thing that is spreading? I think it is. I remember thinking like this while I was in (that we don't have to follow their every word), and I think it applies to many more, especially youths, now. It's rather ironic that they say they're "not following man", when that "man" is where they've gotten everything they believe in from. "Man" is behind 'Jehovah', "man" is behind the 'Faithful and discreet slave' -concept and the concept of who belongs to that group (and that it is a group in the first place), and all the other details of doctrine that they believe in. And yet, they say they do not follow "man". It's quite interesting, really, how the mind works when indoctrinated. To think I once would have agreed, and felt "uplifted" by this video...

34

Does anyone remember the pic about the apostates at end of 1000 yrs.....

by chrisjoel in

jw
friends

it was a picture about those who would take a final stand against the new world order like a camp outside of the true worshippers.

so satan would be let loose for a little period and then anyone who agrees with satan ...ends up looking like keith richards with earings and is deserving of death.. anyone remember the pic?.

Awakened07

And then! Satan is let loose again! Yes - Satan! We just need to test you earthly no-gooders one more time.

Yep - the guy allegedly responsible for all the shit in the universe in the first place, gets to live and be an a-hole for thousands of years and allegedly kill - directly or indirectly - billions of people. And - as if that wasn't lenient enough, he gets to live another thousand years, in shackles but still, and then is let loose again! - While a poor schmuck who happens to be a human, gets to be dead for all eternity for a minor infraction done in his perhaps 35 year long life. Now that's justice for you.

79

People who make the truth EXCITING!

by slimboyfat in

jw
friends

i have been fading for years now and attend meetings very rarely these days.

but something happened recently to make me think about going regularly again.

a couple have returned to my congregation who used to be special pioneers here twenty years ago.

Awakened07

Slimboyfat;

one thing I agree with you on, is that there can be a tendency to paint everything that has anything to do with JWs with a broad, black brush. Especially I agree when it comes to people's feelings - I agree that many are genuine and really believe what they have been taught and are teaching. And I don't think it helps someone like you for instance, when other 'apostates' bash every single thing, even individual JW's sincerity. This is not your experience, and therefore you'll automatically think to yourself "This is not what I have seen and experienced. Perhaps the JWs have a point about apostates." So, I don't think bashing everything about JWs are helpful all the time. And it's not my own experience either. I once knew the "top guy" of the Watchtower in my country, and he was a genuinely nice guy who believed what he was "selling". Most others, and myself included, at one point did the same. It's not like I really knew I was wrong, but did it anyway. No, I really believed once. So in that particular aspect, I agree with you.

That does not make the religion true, though.

15

-Are "apostates" more strict on WBTS doctrine than active Witnesses?

by Awakened07 in

jw
friends

or: "common responses to criticism, by active jehovah's witnesses", which i could also have called this topic.. .

-a video i just saw on youtube made by an active witness took me down memory lane a bit, and reminded me of how i used to think and respond to some common criticisms of the jws.

as i started writing this post, i had planned to put this person's thoughts point-by-point, but it turned out he was pretty much only covering one common critisism.

Awakened07

Or: "Common responses to criticism, by active Jehovah's Witnesses", which I could also have called this topic.

-A video I just saw on YouTube made by an active Witness took me down memory lane a bit, and reminded me of how I used to think and respond to some common criticisms of the JWs. As I started writing this post, I had planned to put this person's thoughts point-by-point, but it turned out he was pretty much only covering one common critisism. Perhaps I'll add others in successive posts, and we can go through them.

Instead of posting the link to the video, I'll write the main points down here, because I don't want this to be about that person, but rather the arguments used. What I write will not be totally verbatim, but close enough (I've done my best not to add anything he doesn't mean).

So, here it is. This is in response to the "apostate" argument that an active JW has to obey and follow everything the FDS teaches. So this is one active JW's response:

"We don't have to follow every single word that the Watchtower society says. I do not follow any man-made organization or any man, I am a Witness to Jehovah God, not to the Watchtower organization.

'The faithful and discreet slave' (reads Mat. 24:45) are made up of the anointed brothers of Christ still alive here on earth; the remnant of the 144.000. I don't follow them; I follow Jesus Christ, I follow Jehovah God. I do believe the FDS is a tool Jehovah God uses in these last days to give 'food' to God's people. I don't believe everything the Watchtower teaches are necessarily true teachings. There are lots of misrepresentations, and a lot of things I don't agree with in the Watchtower society. Very minor things though, it's not anything too big. But I think this is actually prophecy: The Bible foretells this in Ezekiel 36, verse 33 (reads). So Jehovah foretold a spiritual cleansing of his people, and I believe this is being done today, ever since Jesus Christ was crowned king in heaven in 1914.

It's been progressive, it hasn't been instantaneous. Remember, Jehovah's Witnesses are a Bible-based religion, We are not going to have all the scriptural answers just like that (snaps fingers). It's gonna take time, because we are an organization that study the scriptures. We're not gonna know everything within a few years. We have to study and make... ...the Bible is a big book, we have to make sure things are in harmony with itself; we have to make sure the inspired word is in harmony with all the other things in the scriptures. Since I do not agree with a lot of things the Watchtower society teaches, some of you may ask 'So why are you still a JW?' -I have the same attitude David did (quotes 1. Samuel now, 24:6) I believe it is completely inappropriate for a Christian to go against what the FDS says, because they are the anointed of Jehovah. King Saul here, he was evil, he was a person who was detestable in the eyes of God, yet, as a faithful servant of God, David did not dare thrust his hand against Jehovah's anointed. This is the same attitude I hold today. I love my faithful brothers in the truth, I love the FDS, they do so much for us, and truly are to be commended for their efforts. They are fallible, they are imperfect, they make mistakes. When I see that their teachings go beyond the things that are written in God's inspired Word, I do not agree with it, but I don't go and start preaching against it. I know that Jehovah's spirit will guide us eventually into all truth."

So - this brought back some memories, because I used to think along the same lines myself. Possibly when I was no longer 100% active, though. Not sure how close to the fringes this person is, or if he's smack in the middle, but he claims to be active.

But - - the reason I made this topic was not really to go through every sentence this person said and pick them apart (you may if you wish), but I wanted to ask the question:

-Could it be said that 'apostates' are too harsh, too strict and to-the-letter when it comes to what the FDS says, and that this is not how the average JW sees things? Do you think an active Witness hears 'apostates' say "Well, they have to follow everything some old guys in Brooklyn says", and think to themselves, "Well, that's just not true, typical apostate lies and exaggerations." ? If so, would they have a point?

I don't believe so (what does the WBTS have to say about this?), but I would like to hear your thoughts on this, and would also like a well thought-out response to the things brought up in the video.