Posts by Frenchy

19

The Problem of Evil --- The Dilemma

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

hi, folks.

gravedancer has invited us to a discussion of a subject upon which rests the credibility of all faith.

i'm responding by posting a 3 part series reflecting some of the research and thought the i've put into it for some decades now.

Frenchy

::: For instance, if he is omniscient, how could he have perfect love, for the most active ingredient of love is trust and faith. You can exercise neither trust or faith when you already know everything.:::

We are getting into areas here that could easily fill an entire chapter if not a book. You talk of relative perfection and I agree. Perhaps my view of omniscience should also be qualified. There is not a grain of sand of which God is not aware. Not a breath of wind stirs without his being aware of it. There is not an instant of time in which he is not fully aware of where every single star is, every particle of dust, every thought that forms in every synapse of every brain, human and animal, every subatomic particle of matter, and every expenditure of energy in the entire material universe. He also remembers where those things were and what they were doing from the moment of their creation until now. He is also aware of everything that happens and has happened in what we can only assume is the infinitely more complex heavens in which he is said to reside. What he doesn’t know are the choices that he has given you to make otherwise they would not be choices.

I agree with tyydyy about his view of trust. I trusted my children when they were growing up but that did not keep me from going through their rooms and they knew it. They may have been up to something that they did not even realize was dangerous. I questioned them about where they went and what they did. I verified their stories when I could so that I could trust their answers when no verification was possible. Trust, unlike love, is something earned. I would always love my children, good or bad. I might not have trusted them had they not given me good cause to do so.

2

"nothing more than your biological mother&...

by wheelwithinwheel in

jw
friends

just met an ex who left her husband and dad herself about 3 yrs ago.

her daughter who is still a jw had kept in contact but recently stopped calling.

the ex-sister told me she was going crazy not having news, especially since her daughter was now pregnant.

Frenchy

Wheel:
It's not a 'thing' against women. If the husband would have da'd himself and she would have remained, the tables would have been reversed. It does not seem to matter WHY a person da's or is da'd. Whenever you are 'out' you are shunned and despised. It matters not whether it's a matter of doctrine or gross 'wrongdoing'.

7

Can you believe it? 26 groups!

by ozziepost in

jw
friends

typical of the accusations made by the wts concerning the lack of bible teaching in churches have been these, taken from the awake!

magazine:.

bible neglected.

Frenchy

One way to not study the Bible is to allow someone else to tell you what it means...

19

The Problem of Evil --- The Dilemma

by LoneWolf in

jw
friends

hi, folks.

gravedancer has invited us to a discussion of a subject upon which rests the credibility of all faith.

i'm responding by posting a 3 part series reflecting some of the research and thought the i've put into it for some decades now.

Frenchy

Lonewolf:
I agree with a lot of what you say here for I have said some of those same things myself. For example, I believe that the ‘plot’ by Satan was/is at a very high level of sophistication, perhaps much beyond what humans may be able to comprehend. A line from Milton’s Paradise Lost: “Not more almighty to resist our might. Than wise to frustrate all our plots and wiles” (Belial’s argument against warring with heaven after their ousting.

God’s allowance (gift) of free will would, of necessity, require him to NOT foreknow those actions which are ours to choose. The moment that he would KNOW what we will do would, by definition, seal that action and prevent any other course of action (no second thoughts!) However, that would not mean (as you pointed out in your illustrations) that it would keep him from knowing all the possible courses of action that we might take. Knowing that, he surely knew the possibility of Satan’s rebellion and its consequences. Therefore, this leads me to believe that God ALLOWED this to happen. He KNEW it was a possibility.

In order for Satan to have his free will (and one cannot be judged without it) God had to ‘look away’ and allow the creature to make his own choices. True enough, he chose not to know what Satan would do but he KNEW that the possibility of rebellion existed and what it would mean for mankind.

There is a scripture which I find especially thought provoking in connection with this. “Although he was a Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered;” Heb 5:8 – NWT From this it would appear that the Son, himself, had something to learn or at the very least, another aspect of what he already knew about obedience.

“And not only that, but let us exult while in tribulations, since we know that tribulation produces endurance; endurance, in turn, an approved condition; the approved condition, in turn, hope,” Ro 5: 3,4 --NWT Again, if tribulations produce beneficial results it’s a strong argument that God not only permitted the rebellion that caused the ‘fall’ but that had Satan not rebelled, God would perhaps have allowed something else to be the catalyst that would plunge mankind into this confusing madness in which we are struggling so desperately.

32

We're not wrong, right?.............

by flower in

jw
friends

suddenly i am hit with this overwhelming feeling that we are wrong and that there are logical explanations for all of the things that dont make sense.

aaaah.

this is awful.

Frenchy

Flower: A lot of us have been through what you are experiencing, hon. It's part of the process for a lot of us who were very in and very sincere about the whole thing.

The question you ask cannot be answered by anyone but you. You alone should decide what it is that you will do. I know it's difficult but it's necessary. Up until now someone else has been doing your thinking for you and like unused muscles that are suddenly flexed, there is some pain when the intellect is called upon to make decisions on its own.

Here is something that helped me. In the end we all stand alone before the throne of judgment, we stand before God for what we did and didn't do and there is no one that can come between us. That means that our life is our responsibility, we alone have to account for it. Suppose we made a mistake? So what? God knows that we will make mistakes, it will be our mistakes. The Society has, by its own reluctant semi-admission, made plenty of mistakes, some of their mistakes have cause untold harm and even death. Have you done anything on that scale? I don't think so. So why would God allow the Society to make mistakes and not you?

God will not punish you for honest mistakes. He judges not so much works but the heart. Consider this warning from Jesus: "But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea." --Matt 18:6 NWT. THAT is what we have to worry about, stumbling and misleading OTHERS. Jesus did not say, "woe to whoever makes a mistake!"

You are doing the right thing to question your faith. You will eventually make a decision based on that investigation. Pray to God and allow him to guide you...mind you I said guide and not choose for you. Yes, that's right, not even God will give you that answer outright so certainly no human should presume to do so.

Hang in there, sis. You'll be fine.

5

Not The Truth? The Elders Might Disagree!

by Derrick in

jw
friends

the silence of the lambs slaughtered before judicial committee hearings is intense:.

judicial committee hearing discussion:.

http://www.aimoo.com/forum/postview.cfm?id=311102&categoryid=2972&startcat=1&threadid=120980.

Frenchy

The question begs that if someone or group of people identifies themselves as the 'faithful and discreet slave class' spoken about in the book of Matthew -- then how is the authenticity of this most serious claim verified?

I have asked that question myself! Enjoyed your comments very much, Derrick. I don't remember 'the prince of peace' Is it on the WT CD?

27

Worldly Husbands

by Frenchy in

jw
friends

larc has an interesting thread going about why jw men choose to date (and beyond) worldly women in lieu of dating the seemingly overbundant supply of 'horny' sisters available.

i recommend it.. it set me to thinking about yet another interesting phenomena in jwdom.

that is the situation where the jw woman has, as a husband, a 'non-believer'.

Frenchy

Thank you, especially you ladies for your perspective.

Chakka, welcome to the board and thank you for posting your story here. I served for many years but I have to be honest and say that I never truly understood nor appreciated what those sisters with unbelieving mates had to go through just to get to a meeting. I still don’t fully know but I feel that I can empathize more now. What you said rings very true, those sisters are not treated like those with believing husbands.

You also gave a good account of what happens to a lot of JW children. I know that in our local congregation many of the kids ‘went bad’, I mean MANY. Your comments well illustrate the volatile situation those children are forced to bear. Parents that are serious about ‘the truth’ really try hard to indoctrinate their offspring. Many of the kids resist and in the end they go wild and crazy. Some recover, some don’t. I know too many that did not.

I hope that you are recovering and that things are better now. The real reason for this board is to help those that are hurting and need to do some venting. Remember that when you do, you help yourself as well as others who are feeling just like you. We appreciate the time and effort that you put into your post and look forward to seeing more of you.

Waiting:
Thank you too for sharing with us. Again, you have helped me see something that I never appreciated in all my years as a witness. I never realized how difficult it was for sisters dragging three or four kids by the hand to attend a convention without ‘the head of the house.’ I would see them huddled together sometimes and it never dawned on me the monumental task they had of arranging their affairs before, during, and after conventions. They were the ones that had to make the rooming arrangements by themselves, plan the trip, pack the suitcases, check in the motels, arrange those horrible box lunches we were told we must stick under our seats so we could ‘associate’ with the friends during the break. They had to tend to the kids, bring them to the bathroom, take notes, and ALL of them were expected to join in their congregations’ cleaning assignment. I always saw more sisters than brothers with broom! They swept and cleaned up while tending the kids and then afterwards they headed off to McDonalds to feed the clan and then to some cheap motel (usually in a suspicious neighborhood) to spend the night.

DB: Your comments are appreciated as well. You got to see both sides. It’s easy to see why the Society stresses ‘marrying only in the truth’ because there is always one ‘pushing’ the other. It’s a whole lot stressful when there is no pushing, eh?

Thank you all.

12

Witness Denial, or Acceptance of 'Truth'

by ashitaka in

jw
friends

i was talking to an elder's son, giving him the reasons for leaving the 'truth'......the un thing, molestation stuff, shunning, new light, nazi discrepencies, etc.

he agreed with me on almost all points.

we spoke for almost two hours, over a couple of beers.

Frenchy

Ashi:
A point to ponder. When a witness hears of corruption within the organization they see it as the work of one or two individuals...even if it's one or two individuals in the governing body. They are unable to view the faith as being wrong because they believe it is the very voice of God. It is possible for a witness to find out that ALL the members of the governing body are guilty of a gross sin and still only blame individuals while defending the whole.

30

Jacob I loved, Esau I hated!

by AIRVIEW1 in

jw
friends

only some of the people of israel are truly god's people,and only some of abraham's desendants are the true children of abraham.

abraham's true children are those who become god's children because of the promise god made to abraham.

before the two boys were born, god told rebekah,"the older will serve the younger".

Frenchy

Sounds to me like the same answer used in Job--"I'm bigger and more powerful, so shut up and don't question my authori-tay." –Ginny

Then there are the passages where God actually allows humans to reason with him such as was the case with Lot, his rescinding his judicial decree upon Nineveh, and in some of his dealings with Moses.

Reasoning along Biblical lines, it seems to me that if I happen to be a lump of clay designed for "dishonorable use," I would actually be resisting the will of God if I tried to act honorably.

Exactly. That’s why I don’t subscribe to the idea that God has pre-ordained us in one direction or the other.

Airview:
If God likes you? What does that mean? Doesn’t Peter tell us that God is impartial? That salvation is open to any and all? The account of Rehab allows me to perceive that God, while not condoning wrongdoing, is able to see past what a person does and what a person is. It’s not about his liking “the town whore” as you put it.

Teejay: “Most humans would instantly benefit when hearing/seeing some believable evidence in a living god.” Good point. This something else that has both troubled and confused me for a long time. I keep asking God to: “Please let me know something. You’ve done it in the past why can’t you do it again, not for me alone but for all of us.”

If the bible is not to be understood, if it's simply meant (in part) to keep humans mentally challenged/occupied over millennia, then where is its true value other than that?

I don’t believe that the Bible is ‘meant not to be understood, period’ for then it would be mere foolishness, contrived nonesense. We cannot understand it fully because at our stage of development we are simply incapable of understanding it fully, just like your mention of your young daughter not being able to understand the legacy you are leaving to her. I believe it is so designed as to cause us to search diligently for the meanings, SOME of which we will definitely find and understand.

I once said (okay, maybe more than once) that you will find exactly what you’re looking for when you go looking in the Bible. You want controversy? It’s there. You want contradictions? You’ll find that too. You want inspiration? It’s there too. It’s in the looking. Motives are established, personalities more clearly defined. I think that it’s doing its job marvelously. Some are angered by it, others have had their lives saved by it, many ridicule, and lots of us read and wonder.

9

Do men have a greater "creative genius"?

by perfectpie in

what comes to your mind when you think of the great minds of the past?.

for me it is da vinci, michaelangelo, manet, monet, picasso, van gogh,.

jerome; closer to today nelson shanks and maybe daniel green.. musically: mozart, beethoven, chopin, hayden, bach.. science: darwin, hawkings, einstein, edisen.. psychology: freud, otto rank, ernest becker.. there are many other fields you could name and with them other creative geniuses and/or great minds.

Frenchy

Maybe we're just plain smarter?

No?

I thought not.