Fine, take all five elements as being similar. You have still failed to answer the question. Just because they are similar ( you can also add they both involved sailors), how does that support your idea that Mark is lying? What evidence do you have that he is lying? Can't they both be similar and still both be true. Example, two families go to Disneyland and come back and tell their stories. Both sets probably went on the same rides, experienced the same weather and even ate the same things. Does tht make one of them a liar?
Posts by RWC
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54Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward ini've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.
i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.
in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.
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54
Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward ini've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.
i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.
in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.
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RWC
Joseph,
You have done quite abit of speculation on what Mark was thinking when he wrote the Gospels in an effort to claim that he fictionalized it. Do you have any scholarly evidence to support these speculations on his thought process? Did Luke think the same thing when he wrote his gospel, or was he telling the truth that he was writing the Gospel so that Theophilus may know the certainty of what he had been taught? Luke includes the calming of the sea as well as Mark.
The fact that both stories involve the sea and a storm do not mean that Mark's is made up. That is an illogical leap. Why isn't it a copy of the Moses story when the sea is parted and all are saved. Both stories involve a sea, a great wind, the need to be saved, God intervening through Moses to part the sea, and everyone being in fear of the Lord and rejoicing afterwards.
The bottom line, just like in the feeding stories that you mention, is what evidence do you have that they did not happen as was written? The authors are saying they are writing what they witnessed or what they were taught from eyewitnesses. You claim that they are lying and making connections to older stories in an effort to prop up Jesus, yet you have no evidence that they are lying. Maybe, if there is a connection to be made, Jesus, as the son of God, did engage in some of the same behavior as God such as controlling nature and bringing people back to life because he had the ability to do so. That would make similar feats attributed to God in the Old Testament sound familar, but it is no evidence that Jesus did not engage in that activity or that the Gospel writers copied the old stories for that purpose.
The question to you is: What support do you have that these apparant similar events were recorded by Mark and Luke not because they happened, but becuase they were lying about it?
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14
Oh dear, problems...
by Abaddon in... well, tomorrow there will be a big announcement in my company that will, if the gossip is correct, mean redundancies in all departments.
my normal gossip network has no reliable data, just scuttlebutt.
i don't know if i am safe or not... i think i might be, as my manager's asked me to be in to help him (boss code for "help me sack people?
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RWC
Abaddon,
I will pray for you in this time of trial. It is times like this that make faith important. Instead of offering you "luck" which is offered with sincerity, but is not rational, I will offer you the help of the God I believe in and my good thoughts. Those who have faith in God can tell you countless stories of how this faith shored them up in times of trouble and gave them a foundation to go on. I could personally tell a few of those and offer them to you if you would like.
With all sincerity, I will pray that you have peace during this time and that you and your family are secure, regardless of the outcome.
God Bless
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54
Bible Fake: Jesus Stills the Storm
by JosephAlward ini've argued before in this forum that mark wanted to have jesus seem to be the messiah whose existence he believed--or pretended to believe--was prophesied, foreshadowed, or prefigured, by persons and events found in scripture, so he scoured the writings of the prophets for these stories, and adapted them to fit jesus.
i believe the striking parallels below show almost conclusively that mark's story about jesus stilling the storm was adapted from jonah, and is fictional.. in jonah, a violent storm threatens a ship on which jonah sleeps, so mark made a violent storm threaten a ship on which jesus sleeps.
in jonah, the apprehensive sailors waken jonah and question his cavalier attitude toward the danger, so mark made his boat's captain apprehensive also, and had him, too, waken jesus and question him about his seeming lack of concern.
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RWC
Good Morning Joseph,
This one is quite a stretch. You leave out some very important details of the story of Jonah that render your attempt futile. Jonah is the story of a man who willingly disobeyed God and tried to run from him. The storm came while he was running away from Ninevah where God had told jonah to preach. The men on the boat knew he was running from God so when the storm came up because he had told them. They asked him "What have you done?" At that point the sea was getting rougher so they asked him "What shall we do to make the sea calm down?" He told them to throw him overboard because he knew it ws his fault that the storm came up. They initially did not do that and tried to row to shore. But when they couldn't, they threw him overboard and the sea calmed.
The message from the story of Jonah is far different from the message of Jesus calming the seas. The people to whom Mark was writing would know the story of Jonah and know what it taught. It is unlikely that hey would not make the connection you are attempting to make so including it would win Mark any converts.
Also, anytime the Gospel writers attempts to point that Jesus fulfilled an old Testament prophesy, they quoted the text. Why wouldn't they mention Jonah if they made the connection?
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30
Jesus died on a stake or a cross?
by 2SYN inthis is something i've been puzzling over recently.
just for argument's sake, let's say that jesus did exist - was he murdered on a stake or on a cross?
this is puzzling me, because the only real research i've ever read on the subject was in wtbts publications, and since this is obviously a highly questionable source of documentation, i'd love it if someone here could point me to a scientific resource for finding out the truth about this...thx.... the earlier in the forenoon you take the sun bath, the greater will be the beneficial effect, because you get more of the ultra-violet rays, which are healing.
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RWC
For someone who has never been a JW could you please explain why they go to these lengths to say that Jesus was killed on a stake and not a cross? Is it simply the idea that crosses are pagan and they don't want to be associated with them?
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9
The Bible - a hopeless book
by Norm inwe all know that people are helpless and unable to understand the bible on their own.
only by getting your hands on some watchtower literature will you be able to understand the bible.
for all intent and purpose this of course makes the bible redundant.
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RWC
Edster, Don't you mean Joseph Smith? Also, the Bible you claim to have read is not the same one I have read. To contend that the bible is irrelevant to our times is simply a sign that that you have either never read it or have ignored what you have read. It contains lessons for all generations, it has wonderful poetry, it talks of love like no other book, it expresses universal thruths that even those who believe in the Bible take as truth, it talks about love and respect for women like no other religious text, it tells of great men of courage and convictions, it tells of men who died for their beliefs, it talks of people with great character and also talks of people's failings. In short is the greatest book ever written.
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8
Religion: The Bane of Humanity
by Adam inso yesterday i showed the receptionist some comments that i had posted on a different board.
the gist of the post was that i thought god's punnishment of the entire human race for the actions of one person, namely adam, was a gross miscarrage of justice.
also that bible tells us of this act, then says that he is a god of love, contradicting it's self.
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RWC
So if Religion is so bad and has been a curse on society, name for me three atheist based organizations that have done as much good as Mother Theresa, Feed the Poor, Habitat for Humanity and all of the other countless religious based organizations that exist soley to help people and do so in the name of Christanity.
Are there hypocrits in religion? of course
Have bad things been done in the name of Religion? Of course
But if you really think that Man would be better off not having religion in its development you are kidding yourself. Societies that have been based upon atheism or that have not allowed religious expression and worship have been complete failures and have led to some of the world's worst events.
It is unfortunate that some of you have encountered people who have not shown the love that is paramount in Chrisitn religion. The theme should be hate the sin, love the sinner. For those who are homosexual you will have problems with the Christian religion because that lifestyle is expressly prohibited in the Bible. No amount of tolerance for the culture will change that. But the person should be loved and the sin condemned.
As for the human race facing the rath of Adam, that is simply a misunderstanding of the fall of man and on the salvation through Jesus Christ.
God Bless
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29
Questions for Evolutionists
by RWC init appears that alot of people on this board believe in evolution (either by that name or by another) as the explanation for the origins of life.
to those people i would sincerely ask the following:.
1. where did plants come from?.
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RWC
I have learned alot. Thank you all.
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67
Bible Error: The Visit to the Tomb
by JosephAlward inthe following two accounts of the morning visit by the women to anoint jesus body are contradictory.
according to mark, the women wondered how they would remove the stone covering the tomb, but they found that it had already been rolled away.
matthew, however, says that when the women went to the tomb, there was an earthquake, and an angel came down from heaven, went to the tomb, and rolled the stone back.
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RWC
Thanks for the reply Joseph. I think that the NIV is more correct that the abrupt ending in verse 8 indicates that the actual ending has been lost. So we may never really know if Mark didn't know of Mary meeting Jesus as you assume or if he did and his version was lost.
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29
Questions for Evolutionists
by RWC init appears that alot of people on this board believe in evolution (either by that name or by another) as the explanation for the origins of life.
to those people i would sincerely ask the following:.
1. where did plants come from?.
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RWC
I read the talk origins sites that were posted. Although they were very technical I took from them the following:
1. We can say that animals evolved from one species to the other because we established the species in the first place. That sounds alot like fitting science to the theory which would violate the principles of science.
2. Because we have established what it takes to be a bird and what it takes to be a reptile, because we hae found one animal that seems to have elements of both, that is a transitional animal and evidence of macroevolution. A major leap that should not be made if we established the definitions of a species in the first place.
3. There is alot of assumptions and faith in the theory to make it sound scientific, but at the end of the day, these scientists are believing in things that they have little if any evidence of or that they are sure there will be evidence of discovered later.
4. The idea that because everything is so closely related to the other that it must have come from a common source is not a very big leap from saying that God created everything. The dispute is the source of course, but science has not found that common source, so it has faith in something that it can't prove. People who believe in God for the same thought process are called stupid and uneducated. Scientists who express that same thought process are simply putting their faith in man and the scientific process.
In the end, it appears that both scientists and creationists are believing in what each would call the unknown.