It never made sense to me that God would simply create a human incarnation of himself to shed blood as a figurative sacrifice to pardon sin and save mankind. And better still, it doesn't make too much sense why he sent an "angel" to do the same thing. This legalistic approach viewed by Christians as some expression of love is very strange. Watchtower literature does in fact admit that Jehovah himself created death and he himself pronounced the death sentence on Adam and thus all of his descendants. Yet, to whom is the ransom price paid to? It isn't Satan! Watchtower would shudder if it suggested that! Actually, WT Publications show that the ransom price (to pay the one holding someone hostage) was actually paid to none other than Jehovah himself. So God got his oldest Son to do the dirty work for him, to make everything appear as if there was some kind of loving process to free mankind from sin, when in fact it was Jehovah who enslaved mankind in sin in the first place. Yeah, who would want to worship a God like that?
ukpimo
JoinedPosts by ukpimo
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171
Alteration of Revelation 3:14 in the 4th century to support the emerging Trinity doctrine
by slimboyfat inin an earlier thread another poster asserted that there is no evidence that revelation 3:14 played a part in the 4th controversy that led to the trinity doctrine.
this was claimed as evidence that the description of jesus as “the beginning of the creation of god” in the verse was not understood to mean that jesus was god’s first creation.
the scholarly greek–english lexicon of the new testament & other early christian literature 3e (2001) by bauer, arndt, gingrich, and danker, in its latest edition states that “first creation” is indeed the probable meaning of the greek phrase.
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Pre-Nicene christians and the trinity
by joey jojo inthis is just a quick summary that might be useful regarding the threads about the trinity currently on the board.. in 325 ce, the nicene council was called by constantine to settle schisms within the christian church.
the argument about the nature of jesus in relation to god was one of the big problems that needed resolution.
at first, constantine told the 2 main players, alexander and arius to sort it out between themselves, as he, constantine didnt see it as overly important.
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ukpimo
The very fact in the early times there were 2 sides in the debate, non trinitarian and those who leaned towards what would develop into the trinity doctrine, and that if you weren't allowed to express belief that Jesus was essentially God then you would be tortured, even killed, was testimony to the fact that Christians prior to this time did not equate Christ with God himself. However it seems apparent that if a Christian did express a viewpoint about the divinity of Christ contrary to the majority of non trinitarian Christians in the first century, he wasn't necessarily removed from the congregation. It was in fact Paul who identified them as "antichrists" and introduced a new concept to the church that such individuals were to be "marked", treated with caution. These Christians who had a different view regarding the divinity of Christ were still viewed as "brothers", but from Paul's point of view they were "false brothers", still not subject to "removal", unless they disagreed with one fundamental doctrine: the resurrection of Christ. This doctrine was the only one that had to be believed in every Christian church. The Trinity was not and never should have been a fundamental doctrine. It should have been allowed as an alternative viewpoint, subject to correction.
The fact that Trinitarian Christians demonise their members for having different viewpoints reveals that they are no better cults than Jehovah’s Witnesses. True Christianity encompasses all viewpoints on doctrine. Sad to say that all Christian religions, as well as other religions, are more concerned about money than anything else.
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What is Your Favorite WT Lie?
by Sea Breeze ini would like to start a thread on lies that the watchtower and their reps have told.
surely we all have one or two that truly sticks out in our memories, no matter how much we would like to forget.
my favorite wt lie: the reason they don't want to release the name of the "scholars" who worked on the new world translation is because they do not want to accept "glory and honor" from others.
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ukpimo
1975. And down to this day we see factions. Some elders say it wasn't pushed by the Organization, others say it was. Some say their congregation was always talking about it, others say theirs didn't mention it with as much zeal. Despite this, assemblies and conventions in the lead up to 1975 strongly suggested 1975 was a significant year and even during these programs the Society praised witnesses who retired early to pioneer and sold their homes to eventually end up still pioneering and in this same old system nearly 50 years later!
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Is it just me, or is Watchtower lowering its standards?
by ukpimo inin the past, we used to hear talks on:.
avoiding sexual immorality and porn, as well as masturbation and other sexual practices.
why evolution cannot possibly be true.
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ukpimo
In the past, we used to hear talks on:
Avoiding sexual immorality and porn, as well as masturbation and other sexual practices
Why evolution cannot possibly be true
How Watchtower's teachings are pure and why one should reject "Babylon the Great"
How close we are to the end of this system
How not participating in the preaching work at least once a week will incur blood guilt, and why it was non negotiable
And remember when Watchtower used to criticise other religions for "tickling the ears" of their members by focusing on love and Christian works and not on the most important work of all for Watchtower, its evangelical recruitment work?
Nowadays, although elements of these negative subjects are still apparent at meetings, such subjects are now overshadowed by a new way of presenting their cult.
More often, we now hear these messages:
Love your brothers, forgive them regardless of whatever happened to you
Remaining united is more important than making sure you are doing everything right
Develop Christian qualities constantly and remember that you can never perfectly show them to others (in other words, you will fail, but chill out because this is what we expect from you)
Obey every direction from the Governing Body, even if it appears strange from a human standpoint (do as you're told or we'll "remove" you for apostasy)
Loyally support Christ's brothers by volunteering any time you have and we thank you so much for your voluntary donations (wink, wink, nudge)
Show love people who aren't Witnesses and advertise our website freely, with the intention of recruitment of course, perhaps you may be able to trick them into taking an Interactive Bible Course in our own very covert way!
Beards are now okay, any size is fine as long as it doesn't "stumble" any, unless you're a Bethelite of course who appear to grow beards which look so vile they look like they are stuck on the face (shaved so close) rather than growing out like a naturally normal beard.
No ties for men, which was a long time coming. Although I see no point in whether a man chose to wear a tie or not, you should dress as you please. No one should judge you for dressing up if you want.
Slacks for women at meetings and even assemblies and conventions are now okay. The staple of a sister's youth in the past was to buy an attractive new dress every day of the convention for the year, the lowering of standards is disgraceful and takes away the excitement for women who love to shop, now they can just throw on a jumper and slacks, that will do!
Disfellowshipping ("removal") is now made to seem "softer" with the approach of reinstating a removed individual a few months after the announcement. Pathetic. What is the point of making an announcement and avoiding someone socially for 3 or 4 months? I can choose to avoid contacting my daughter for that long and her reaction would be like "what the hell was the point of that dad?"
And just ticking a box for congregation publishers? Watchtower has made the ministry (mainly letter writing or bible studies with children) dead easy. Anyone can do it. No real effort is required. Just come out at least once a month for nearly an hour, even half an hour, and you've done the Lord's work. If you are an elder, ministerial servant, or other publisher who may be a PIMO, what is the point? Just exit now while you have the chance.
What next? I cannot see Watchtower making any more significant changes for some time. However I do have a very strange feeling that next month, on the 1 year anniversary of the "beard announcement" Governing Body update we will probably receive some "news". I don't know if my instincts are correct, it will be interesting to observe what transpires in this Organization.
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Diary of an Unknown Witness
by ukpimo ina rewording of "diary of an unborn child", applied to unknown or misunderstood jehovah’s witnesses trapped in a loveless organization:.
diary of an unknown witness.
october 5:.
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ukpimo
A rewording of "Diary of an Unborn Child", applied to unknown or misunderstood Jehovah’s Witnesses trapped in a loveless organization:
Diary of an Unknown WitnessOCTOBER 5:
Today my life began. I dedicated my life to Jehovah. My friends do not know it yet, but it is I already. And I am to be a Witness for Jehovah. I shall act with faith and conviction to declare the most important message to mankind. Just about everything is settled though, even the fact that I love this worldwide Brotherhood.
OCTOBER 19:
Some say that I am not a real Witness yet, that only my mother Organization exists with its many Witnesses. But I am a real person, just as a small crumb of bread is yet truly bread. My mother is. And I am.
OCTOBER 23:
At the Convention, my mouth is just beginning to open now. Just think, in a year or so I shall be laughing and later talking with great knowledge and experience. I know what my first word will be: YES!
OCTOBER 25:
My heart began to beat today all by itself when I set out on the Lord's work. From now on it shall gently beat for the rest of my life without ever stopping to rest! And after many years it will tire in this old system. It will not stop, and I shall never die at all.
NOVEMBER 2:
I am growing spiritually bit every day. My Christian qualities are beginning to take shape. But I have to wait a long time yet before those little efforts will raise me to my mother Organization's arms in full-time service, before these little arms will be able to gather disciples and I can figuratively embrace my Father Jehovah.
NOVEMBER 12:
Some return visits are beginning to form on my route. Funny how small they are! I’ll be able to please my Mother Organization.
NOVEMBER 20:
It wasn’t until today that I'm sure the elders told the Circuit Overseer on his visit how well I've been doing spiritually. Oh, how happy he must be! Are you happy, mother Organization?
NOVEMBER 25:
My elders and Circuit Overseer are probably considering appointing me to a position of responsibility. But they don’t even know that before becoming a Witness I wanted to be a little girl. I wanted to be called Kathy. I am getting so big in the truth already. But let's put my past behind me!
DECEMBER 10:
Now my hair is growing. It is smooth and bright and shiny. I wonder how the elders think of me? I haven't been appointed yet.
DECEMBER 13:
I am just about able to see Truth about the Truth. In the congregation, it is dark around me. When mother Organization brings me into the Kingdom Hall it appears to be full of sunshine and flowers, but this is not true. But what I want more than anything is to see my mother Organization love me for who I am. How do you feel about that dear Governing Body?
DECEMBER 24:
I wonder if mother Organization hears the whispering of my heart? Some young ones come into the world a little spiritually sick. But my heart is strong and healthy, full of love for God and Christ. It beats so evenly: tup-tup, tup-tup. You’ll have a healthy little child, mom!
DECEMBER 28:
Today the Organization killed me.
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Where do you see the Organization in the next 10 years?
by ukpimo inrealistically, between now and 2034, what do you think watchtower will change or reform to appear more mainstream?
what business opportunities do you see watchtower getting involved in?.
my predictions are as follows: .
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ukpimo
Realistically, between now and 2034, what do you think Watchtower will change or reform to appear more mainstream? What business opportunities do you see Watchtower getting involved in?
My predictions are as follows:
- Online Live Meetings on JW.ORG.
- Midweek meetings with more videos, less discussion.
- Weekend meeting with videos for the Watchtower Study.
- More emphasis on congregations focusing on public witnessing with carts and leaflet distribution in public areas, less emphasis on D2D and RVs, that being reserved for "personal territory".
- Leaflets redesigned to only offer Bible study courses.
- Watchtower and Awake public editions are fazed out. Most brochures are also fazed out. Only Was Life Created, Origin of Life, Enjoy Life Forever, Apply Yourself, Love People and See the Good Land will remain.
- Rebranded Organization book to appear even more "transparent".
- New Revelation book, and Isaiah and Daniel prophecy books. Revised Imitate Their Faith to include more from online only articles. These books will continue the CBS for another few years.
- Body of Elders and MS arrangement changed to being chosen / deleted by the Circuit Overseer himself rather than by recommendation through the BOE.
- All current Circuit Overseers and wives must have been enrolled at SKE, resulting in the removal of pre-SKE COs.
- SKE will be looked after by a separate legal corporation not associated with the Branch office, further removing liability for any issues with elders and ministerial servants. This legal corporation will be responsible for the direction of Circuit Overseers, Special Pioneers and Construction Servants.
- A legal corporation office will be installed in every city or town in which a congregation resides, as a base for communication for the Circuit Overseers and Local Elders, the construction or renovation of which will be on the list for free slave labour by willing volunteers and a massive moneymaking scheme for the org.
- More Assembly Halls in most cities will be built, potentially to replace any Kingdom Halls (to be sold of course) and merge even more congregations and force congregations to travel further for meetings.
- JW.ORG will include new features for singles to find potential marriage mates.
- JW.ORG will include new features to provide an opportunity for anonymous confession regarding a sin, to be responded by a 24/7 operator whose aim is to basically find out where you're from, secretly tell the elders in your cong, yet manipulate you to tell them in detail about your sins.
- No more ban on "worldly celebrations", it's up to each Christian family's conscience to decide what to do.
- Porn, oral sex and masturbation are no longer treated as uncleanness and are personal choice as long as they are done in private.
- The calculation for 1914 is completely abandoned, yet jws will still claim we can perceive that we are in the Last Days now.
- More crazy beliefs are gradually changed in random boxes and footnotes in upcoming Watchtowers! The gaslighting will be real!
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Are you glad you got the Covid Vaccine? Did it help?
by liam ini didn’t get the covid vaccine, but i admit, i was scared as shit i made the wrong decision because there was so much confusion out there.
practically all my family and most of my friends took the vaccine because everyone was depending on those in charge to speak the truth.
now a lot of them are sick, and they can't figure out why.
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ukpimo
The Organization say: "We've made mistakes, we are imperfect men".
I say "Well, start specifically telling us all the mistakes you have made instead of generalising your response and come clean with a clear apology". Which will never happen, of course.
"It's a perfect organization run by imperfect men!" What complete utter Bull and a glaring logical fallacy.
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Are you glad you got the Covid Vaccine? Did it help?
by liam ini didn’t get the covid vaccine, but i admit, i was scared as shit i made the wrong decision because there was so much confusion out there.
practically all my family and most of my friends took the vaccine because everyone was depending on those in charge to speak the truth.
now a lot of them are sick, and they can't figure out why.
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ukpimo
I have witnessed unusual deaths in recent years which had to be related to the Covid vaccine and/or the booster jabs. Particularly Astrazeneca, which has been pulled, was likely the cause of many deaths among jws worldwide. I know of about 20 individuals between the ages of 23 and 48 who died shortly after a covid jab and the congregations brushed these matters aside pretending it was nothing to do with that, and it was a "sign of the Last Days". Bollocks.
No apology from the elders who promoted it and no apology from the GB who themselves have stated that they will issue "no apology" for any matter.
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Bethelites dressing up for Halloween
by neat blue dog inthink about it: they had to go out and buy halloween paraphernalia, then apply makeup & costumes to dress the 'brothers & sisters' up as vampires, witches, mummies etc.
and you know they were probably joking around the whole time.
what a bunch of hypocrites, the last gen gb would be turning in their graves to see such a photoshoot at the 'house of god' 😆.
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ukpimo
When I was PIMI, I was shocked to see that image. This was the first nail in the coffin. Excuse the pun. I gradually began to question everything after that year.
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1/25 WT: Oral and Anal sex are a go - if she's ok with it
by neat blue dog inhe will not pressure her to engage in sexual acts that make her feel uncomfortable, that are demeaning, or that bother her conscience..... the bible does not provide details as to what sexual practices between a husband and a wife should be considered clean or unclean.
a christian couple must make decisions that reflect their resolve to honor jehovah, to please each other, and to maintain a clean conscience.
generally speaking, a couple would not discuss with others this intimate aspect of their marriage..
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ukpimo
I think we should create a separate thread where everyone is giving detailed and specific anecdotal evidence relating to the elders' warped sexual views. That would be a damning report against elder bodies around the world that failed to be clean and obey "Mother" Governing Booby.