Rats!
Does that mean I need to get a newspaper subscription again?
Really, what am I going to start my bonfires and fireplace with now!
Frank75
Frank75
JoinedPosts by Frank75
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117
NEW policy! NO LIT for EX-JWs!
by MinisterAmos init's official; they read the letter tonight that puts forth the new procedure.
if you find an expelled person in the field or are studying with one, you are no longer permitted to give them lit.
presumably the elders make a decision if an expelled one is regularly attending meetings, but only they can give them lit.
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22
Good news!!
by Bumble Bee ini've been doing a major cleaning today, anything that hasn't been used or looked at for a while is getting tossed.
one of the biggest things that needs to go is all our jw books and bound volumes.
i've gotten rid of all the loose wt and awakes quite a while ago.. today when hubby came home from work, and saw the bags to go to the dump he was impressed!
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Frank75
Cooler:
I get it. Old light is a good swap for new Bud lite. Works for me.
Can it be used for Coors lite too?
BB:
That is a big step for hubby! Way to go!
Frank75
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66
JC is over... now the aftermath
by drew sagan infirst of all, why don't all of you congratulate me on 2000 posts!
in other news, the jc is over.
because of this we have an elder that lied to us and to my wife parents.
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Frank75
Drew:
Good for you playing your cards out the way that you did, sorry for any pain you had to endure because of it.
If you had listened to those of us who said not to go, you may have always held a lingering doubt about what "could have" happened had you gone.
This way you add to the mountain of proof that is building up about this evil publishing empire that holds so many good people captive.
Enjoy your freedom!
Frank75
I like your exit strategy as well. Any letter to WT society or the elders will find its way to where all the others are, filed away out of sight.
Consider explaining simple details of how you were treated and sending those letters to everyone BUT the elders. They will have a copy soon enough. Addressing the letter to "The ______ Congregation is a nice touch as well!
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Frank75
They are welcome according to a WT legal department document, but they will need to wait outside.
This does not make any sense. LEGAL dept says no. How is 3 against 1, in any way fair?
It isn't fair, that is the point! This is why the bible used descriptive words for such arrangements, calling these men wolves. Why? Because it is how they work. They prey on the weak, ganging up and prefer the art of surprise!
The last one is worse. In a normal court, the accused knows exactly what he is charged with, given time to prepare and even know in advance what evidence exists against him! These are natural rules of justice. You will be told nothing or precious little, given no time to prepare and not be permitted in most cases to confront/cross examine those accusing you.
If I brought my lawyer, would he be able to stay?
Absolutely not. Again he could come, but he would not be permitted to participate in the proceedings. Now there may have been an allowance at one time but I have never heard of it and it would be a particularly special case involving power players in the religion.
The only lawyer I know of permitted into a JC was the Witness lawyer who was being interrogated/judged!
The only time someone is allowed into the meeting is when it involves a baptized minor child. The parents or parent is allowed to be present.
I've had my share of JC meetings. Some deserved, others not.
I mean no disrespect here, but there is never a deserving reason for a JC. Paul apparently faced a JC of some sort in the 1st Century. He blasted it. It is unscriptural for brothers to judge one another in this way.
(1 Corinthians 4:1-5) 4
Let a man so appraise us as being subordinates of Christ and stewards of sacred secrets of God. 2 Besides, in this case, what is looked for in stewards is for a man to be found faithful. 3 Now to me it is a very trivial matter that I should be examined by YOU or by a human tribunal. Even I do not examine myself. 4 For I am not conscious of anything against myself. Yet by this I am not proved righteous, but he that examines me is God.5 Hence do not judge anything before the due time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring the secret things of darkness to light and make the counsels of the hearts manifest, and then each one will have his praise come to him from God.I don't know if you see the clarity in that but there is just no reason for puritanical shunning. Sure some judging must be done on a personal level that you may consider someone not your cup of tea, or insincere in their approach to life, but none of this Excommunication crap can be adequately defended with the bible if looked at in context.
Frank75
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Jehovah's Witness Radar----Do You Have It?
by minimus insome people can spot a "gay" person by using their built-in "gaydar".. can you spot a witness easily?
what are the signs that this person must be a witness??
tell us about you "jwdar".....(prounounced jawaydar)..
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Frank75
When I see a clean cut guy wearing a light brown suit, blue shirt, tassels on his shoes, and dishpan hands I know it's a pioneer™, window cleaner, and probably a MS and elder's son. He'll probably apply to go to bethel before the year is out. Dark rimmed glasses and a pasty complexion ensure he'll be accepted.
W
Good call!
The only thing that slows the process for our Bethel candidate, is he has to come to grips with the questions on the entrance form about viewing pornographic literature and other personal questions that he will need to lie about.
Once he figures that out, he will be able to send in the App!
Frank75
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62
Update on my JC situation
by drew sagan infirst of all i wanted to say that many of you have given some very good suggestions.
there is about 5 different things i'm making a point to do now that i wasn't thinking of before.
thanks a bunch!
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Frank75
As to appeal committees. I don't recall any going to appeal in my area, but I would say that overturning one would be very possible. Here is the reason.
MANY elders feel other elders or bodies of elders are idiots. Certain congregations have specific reputations in this area.UC:
Sure anything is possible, but like someone else said, the tables are very much stacked against you.
Something you may not realize is that an appeal committee has no authority whatsoever to "overturn" anything. If they think the original committee has made a mistake, they cannot let the accused know but must instead convince the JC to change their mind. If they cannot, they are to simply write what they feel in a report to the Society and the JC is not to announce DF'ing until they hear form them. The feelings of the appeal might be validated by the Society however that would be extremely rare, because they hide behind the JC for legal reasons. If the Society or branch office start to dictate what they should judge then this weakens their defense strategy of scapegoating the JC in a legal battle. Dissenting appeal committees never get a call back and their notes, arguments and reasoning just ends up buried in Bethel archives.
The appeal process is a joke, and that is why you never hear about it. I know of good elders who honestly told people it wouldn't work and not to waste their time. They knew the way appeals were structured and knew it was a waste of time!
If the appeal committee disagrees with the decision to disfellowship, the decision should be discussed with the original judicial committee privately.
If both committees agree that the person should not be disfellowshipped, the individual should be so advised.
The appeal committee will send the branch office a brief explanation of the mutual conclusion not to disfellowship reached by both committees, which should clearly state that the original judicial committee agrees with the decision.
The original committee will receive a copy of the letter, which will be kept in a sealed envelope in the congregation's confidential file.
Here is the clicker:
At times the original committee and the appeal committee may hold conflicting opinions.
When this occurs, the individual should not be given any indication of the conclusions of the appeal committee. Simply tell the person that the decision is pending.
The appeal committee should send the S-77 and S-79 forms to the branch office with a letter giving reasons for its decision and should include a letter from the original committee expressing the reason(s) for disagreement.
The appeal committee gives the original committee a copy of its report. Both committees await a reply from the branch office.
There is also a subtle undercurrent in the instructions in the KS book and any correspondence I have read from the Society, first it always comes back to the sin said to have been committed, that is the real offense and not the repentance at all. Read the instructions in the KS book carefully to see what I mean.Then there are statements like this that push an outcome
When the disfellowshipping is upheld by the appeal committee, there is no further right to appeal.
Not IF, but "WHEN" it is upheld.
Frank75
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62
Update on my JC situation
by drew sagan infirst of all i wanted to say that many of you have given some very good suggestions.
there is about 5 different things i'm making a point to do now that i wasn't thinking of before.
thanks a bunch!
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Frank75
Frank, you are correct. My experience with someone that we thought was cleverly playing a game with us---was not the norm. And I'm sorry but I would think that the elders would think a person was jerking them around and respond accordingly. It's called human nature. It might not be right but it happens----especially when a publisher tries to shake up the elder's jc.
I am not entirely sure I understand what you are agreeing with.
The problem I see in what you point out is that is the way any elevated group is going to view those beneath them. Rarely is a JC concerned about how their "attitude" is towards the person or any, "shaking up" and games they may be playing. The focus becomes centered on the underling.
These separations and class structures that exist in the JW religion and most others is what is wrong.
Jesus said "who is greater the one ministering or the one reclining?"
Such a simple line of questioning from Jesus exposes the JW religion as upside down as those "ministering" or who believe they are ministering do not in any way shape or form believe the others to be superior. If they did they wouldn't judge!
Frank75
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62
Update on my JC situation
by drew sagan infirst of all i wanted to say that many of you have given some very good suggestions.
there is about 5 different things i'm making a point to do now that i wasn't thinking of before.
thanks a bunch!
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Frank75
OTWO - I've never been on an appeal committee, and nobody ever appealed a DF that I was on the committee for. They were extremely rare and I would say I heard of 2 successful appeals out of 50 cases ever. That's better than 1 in 500.
I want to be clear that I do not doubt your experience in regards to JC's you've been involved with. I do not think anyone here really believes that there are not kind and compassionate men in the JW religion serving as a shield for people who need it.
That is not the norm is all I am saying and so are the others.
You likely never got a nod for appeal committee because you or the body you served with was not the type the CO would lean on. He would have had his party faithful to go to.
Appeals in many areas are rare not because people are always guilty of something, but rather of threats made by JC's. This is a fact, that many people are told an appeal is proof of unrepentance! Such appeals never pan out as the appeal committee only looks for errors in the original case. Since there is not an official record, it becomes the accused word against 3 elders. Hardly fair. Also the accused is told that people who appeal usually take longer to be reinstated.
Now none of this is said in an outright evil way but couched in terms that are subtle and coercive. I have heard of women being scolded and yelled at. My sister in law is one of them.
Another question. Do you not see a problem with the investigators serving on the committee that judges those actions in the end?
We could talk all day about the ridiculous concept that is embodied in Christians judging one another in such a puritanical way and seeking the opinion of men on guilt and innocence even forgiveness with regards to things we are all guilty of in one way or another. However it is simply the structure of and the procedure/process alone of such meetings that is draconian, unloving and wicked.
Indefensible!
Frank75
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Update on my JC situation
by drew sagan infirst of all i wanted to say that many of you have given some very good suggestions.
there is about 5 different things i'm making a point to do now that i wasn't thinking of before.
thanks a bunch!
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Frank75
OTWO -
In the cases of apostasy, it usually isn't clearcut. People are saying something or one person came forward. It sounds like its true so lets go ask him. That would make sense. If he denies this, and there's only one witness, we can say there's no need for a JC. AH, but asking the so-called guilty party allows them to be fully tipped off before the JC. A good investigative committee would do that. I know I did. A witch-hunt would form the JC and try to get the confession in session. So do I know that some are done before they start, yes.
Even in most predetermined guilt cases, they want to help the person.
Sorry if it seems this thread is being hijacked. Just a quick note about the above comment.
In my "apostasy" case my mother wrote out a letter with 4 things i allegedly said to her. Since I recorded the meeting, I transcribed the document word for word as they told me I couldn't have a copy while all 6 elders did. The truth is nothing she said that I said was apostate. For example she said I had her read 1 John 2:26 and said that we don't need the WT. I never made any comments about the text, I merely showed her in her own bible. The rest were similar accusations. At the end she said I told her not to tell anyone what I said, which is not true, and she said I had apostate leanings.
That was it! Their whole case relied on a single testimony of one person. I reminded them that my mother was old and any of my siblings would testify that she had not been mentally stable for some time. She had also moved from one congregation that she slandered the elders and bad mouthed them and even bad mouthed them the night I allegedly said those things. I asked Why would they take such a persons testimony as valid? This was now the appeal committee chairman speaking, and he said, "because we believe her". I said "ok, but there is no corroborating testimony that I said any of what she is accusing me of, and I deny it too". They said they do not need 2 witnesses in cases of apostasy if the elders feel the congregation is threatened. We had not been to a meeting in almost 2 years at this point.
So I asked "does the ends justify the means even if it violates the bible 2 witness principle?" They said yes it does. As elders our job is to protect the congregation. I asked them if they understood that the same logic could be used against any of them. The Chairman said, no it wouldn't because none of us are apostates.
I wrote out everything that took place in that meeting and wrote the Society, they convened another meeting with the same JC and 6 men, but I never went. What would be the point, either they had two witnesses or they didn't.
That my friend is what accused dubs typically face in the JW star chamber. Your situation was exceptional.
By the way, our congregation which was small by comparison to others in the circuit, ordered DF forms and cards by the dozen. One year alone our congregation DF'd 11 people and one of those people was the PO and was simply a vendetta. In the 10 years I was in that congregation there were at least 50 dfings and numerous more JC's that gave the usual pardon to elders children's and their friends.
That is why I said out of 500-1000 dfings as that is more or less how many had takien place in the same time period in the wider area that I lived in.
I only ever heard of one appeal being successful. Sure there may have been others but I never heard of it. And the one I mentioned was scandalous.
Frank75
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Frank75
Great review you posted there NVR. That guy exposes a great smoke (never had one but I like what I see and am heading out tomorrow to the store to see if i can get a couple for the weekend).
He also gives some good advice in order to properly smoke and enjoy a cigar. Don't rush. If you do on any quality Cigar the result is mung mouth and a loss of enjoyment. So any contemplating taking up a stogy should heed the advice.
I on the other hand went for a walk with my 12 month old boy and I smoked one of these 7th on the list you linked to:
Funny looking but a great smoke, well worth the $
Cheers
Frank75