Was Jesus the first creation. (page 16)

JosephMalik

Who? Not a man born of women. Not someone that qualifies as a true human capable or redeeming the human race. Not an immortal human being to put it simply.

Joseph

JosephMalik

Hellrider,

What is it then? Does Christ alone have immortality as a non-human being? Is that what you are saying?

Joseph

that sounds like a side-step. Had he returned to the Father in some form, or had he not? What is your understanding of his statement to Mary? LT, 17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God. Not yet! Jesus was mindful of the Law Covenant and the regulations established for it. This is why our Lord did not allow Mary to touch Him. He allowed others to touch Him such as Thomas and encouraged them to do so. This He did to show them that He was really human: Lu 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. But not just a mortal human, an immortal human as Paul stated later.

Joseph

LittleToe

Joseph:
Sorry if I'm being a little obtuse, but how does that tally with what you wrote earlier, to wit:

The verse is plain enough and in context with the message John is conveying. Jesus was asking His Father to restore him to the glory (the non-human nature) the Word had as creator. In this glory our Lord could then raise his executed human body as prophesied thus becoming the only Being to possess a dual nature. This dual or hypostasis nature can now be used to further the Kingdom interest and was used to do this very thing for the 40 days our Lord continued here on earth.

So, after his death and interment, the Father raised him to his previous glory so that he could effect a resurrection of his human body??

Are you saying that the person of Christ (as a glorified being) had returned to the Father temporarily, but that it doesn't count because he hadn't brought his body along for the ride, at that point?

If that's not the case, how is it that you say that the Father had a hand in his "raising"?

Hellrider

JosephMalik:

that sounds like a side-step. Had he returned to the Father in some form, or had he not? What is your understanding of his statement to Mary?

I will agree with you that the statement to Mary, and how Jesus should be viewed after the ressurection, is difficult. Or at least I think so, although it seems that you don`t see this as very difficult. Anyway: Why Jesus would say to Mary "Do not touch me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father"? This is very difficult, and almost looks like it doesn`t make any sense, especially in light of the fact that He allows Thomas to put his hand in his side in 20,27. So my interpretation of this (as an amateur, I must add), would be: Jesus is NOT appearing to Mary, or anyone else, in human form! He tells her to not touch him, because he is "of another world", of another sphere (yeah, I know you`re laughing now ). This would also agree with 20,27: Thomas puts his hand in Jesus` side, but we do NOT get to know WHY Thomas reacts the way he does! Does he suddenly believes because he can "feel the flesh"? Or because he can NOT feel the flesh? And by NOT feeling the flesh, would that mean that he suddenly realised that Jesus was a divine being, someone not of this world? I think so. Also, this would make sense in light of:

20:19 On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the disciples had gathered together and locked the doors of the place because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Jesus came and stood among them

Why would the author lay emphasis on the fact that the doors were locked? There could only be one reason for that. Also, that Jesus in his ressurected form is, well, kind of "flexible" is evident in several places. He appears to the disciples in various forms, many of which looks nothing like the man, Jesus, as in 20, 13-15. And then, back to the verse where he won`t let Mary touch him: Well, Jesus, in this state, has laid away his human form. He is divine, something that could be compared to an angelic state. This would probably have been to much for Mary, at this point. Like all good, God-fearing women, she would probably have fainted on the spot...

LittleToe

HR:
The difficulty with that view is that he asked for something to eat, to prove that he wasn't a disembodied spirit

Hellrider

LT:

Ooops, forgot about that one. Well, that he can walk thru doors, ir pretty clear...that he can change into other forms is clear...I guess that Jesus would be able to slip in and out of bodily form then, in his ressurected state. He is BOTH in bodily AND in spiritual form. Of course, there`s also the fact that Jesus was not in the tomb anymore. When Thomas then pokes his finger in his side, it could be either/or, Jesus could be either in bodily or in spiritual form. If he was in bodily form, then that could perhaps be a way for Jesus to let him know "hey, I`m for real! This is real!", so that could very well be it.

...and hence Pauls confusion.

JosephMalik

Are you saying that the person of Christ (as a glorified being) had returned to the Father temporarily, LT, No, I am not saying that. It was a seamless transition in answer to His prayer. The texts are clear enough and our Lord’s prophecy was fulfilled precisely as stated. Joseph

JosephMalik

Why would the author lay emphasis on the fact that the doors were locked? There could only be one reason for that. Also, that Jesus in his ressurected form is, well, kind of "flexible" is evident in several places. He appears to the disciples in various forms, many of which looks nothing like the man, Jesus, as in 20, 13-15. Hellrider, This is but one of several examples (like on the road to Emmaus) where our Lord could conceal his identity even in a large gathering like this one: Joh 8:59 Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by. The clothing of the period may have made this possible but we know our Lord could hide himself at will. Like walking on water, our Lord could do things we cannot at least not yet. No reason why our Lord could not have already been in the room with the locked door and gone unnoticed. It does not say he came through the wall or door anywhere does it? Why jump to such conclusions when we have scriptural examples that teach otherwise. I did not bother to explain the OT Laws on women but you can look them up yourself. No mystery lurking here either. Joseph

Was Jesus the first creation.

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