Was Jesus the first creation. (page 4)

gumby

I see LT just got done with his exercise stuff and is all jacked up now

Is the Trinity issue really that big? I know some folks make an issue of it, but I've never seen it as a "salvation issue",

Yes.....it's REALLY REALLY REALLY big! Jesus is to be worshipped or not. Why didn't he let me know my question to him somehow? If he DID answer me, then I guess he used Alan F, and there is no trinity. Try to fit in any church of your choice and see if they'll let you slide comfortably if you deny Jesus is god. You gotta keep quiet if you don't want trouble......just like with the dubs.

Ive seen this issue as a salvation issue more time than I can count. Ask 10 pastors if it's a salvation issue and see what they say.

Gumantitriune

Gumby

Nate Merit

Hi AJIE

If you're going to stick to the Bible alone, you'll find you can make a good case for and against the Deity of Christ. This fact is what led to the Council of Nicea in 325 AD.

I can take either side in the debate and win. So, when I was a mainstream Bible-believing Christian, this led me to look outside the NT to the church that had produced and canonized the NT for the answer. The Orthodox/Catholic church. It was this study of the major theological and Christological controversies in the early Church Catholic that led me to become a Trinitarian.

Now however I view the Bible as one of many sacred books, the sacred book of my beloved European/American culture.

Nate

AuldSoul

DD, Leolaia said the context defies the interpretation of the CCoJW.

Logic 101: How could Jesus be created, that is be the first of all creation, and also have created all things. He can't possibly be part of both groups called "all," unless they are suggesting he created himself. Which they aren't.

In other words, the context rules out their interpretation, but they hold onto that faulty interpretation religiously (pun intended).

AuldSoul

LittleToe

Gumby:Whether or not you ascribe to the Trinity doctrine, scripture is clear that Jesus can (and should) receive worship. Why would you also need a voice from heaven to supplement that?

Even by NWT botched standards Jesus is "a god". Don't gods receive worship, even woolly ones??

gumby

Actually LT....it would be an interesting read if someone could supply the proper greek for "worship" and prove Jesus is entitled to it. I'll even wait till you have the time I realise worship, reverence, honor can be given even to an earthy leader or high ranking official according to the scriptures. I also realise the scripture that says every knee should bow to his name. What I want is proof worship can be applied to Jesus as far as worshipping him as god himself.

Gumbuddy

Narkissos

HR:

If the Logos is also viewed as "sophia", wisdom, does this also go for "wisdom" in the OT? From what I`ve understood, the "wisdom" (which is spoken of as one of Gods creations?) in Proverbs isn`t supposed to have any references to the Messiah. But is this clear, also from the viewpoint of the writers of the NT? I don`t know if what I write here makes any sense, but what I`m wondering about is: Is there a sophia-conection between the OT and the NT, in the NT being a conection sophia/logos? Could it be that the writers of the NT, speaking of "wisdom" and "the Word" are also referring to Proverbs? Or are they referring to other places in the OT?

The logos developments in Philo and the N.T. borrow a lot of motives from sophia, but logos is not identified to sophia. In this line of thinking sophia as a distinct character recedes into the background. In the N.T., it is the logos with sophia traits, not sophia per se, which is used in christological concepts. Sophia as an independent character subsists -- especially in Luke (7:35; 11:49) -- in a non-christological way (interestingly, Luke lacks any concept of pre-existence of the man Jesus).

Ross,

I suggest a slight correction in your Uninspired translation:

And he is [was around, (and still is, incidentally, which we all think is a jolly good thing)] ~~before~~ behind all ~~things~~ [sheep], and by him all ~~things~~ [sheep] ~~consist~~ [had their genetic matter provided]."

LittleToe

Didier:
Can you help Gumby with this:

What I want is proof worship can be applied to Jesus as far as worshipping him as god himself.

And are you suggesting that:

And he is... behind all ~~things~~ [sheep]

Is equivilent to:

I-CH-TH-U-S

so if jesus was the "first creation" and by him all things (or even all (other) things) were created, then what about:

isaiah 44:24 - This is what the LORD says—
your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
I am the LORD,
who has made all things,
who alone stretched out the heavens,
who spread out the earth by myself

contradiction or trinity confirmation?

gumby

*starts gettin all flaccid again just lookin at the picture*

Gumbumper

Hellrider

LT and Narkissos: Yes, that`s what I thought. Anyway, if the NT-writers were trying to insinuate that there was a connection, then they sure should have said it more plainly...(well, they should have done that on a lot of things..)

LT and Gumby: This: Moses said that this was strictly no-no. And this (well, there`s two of you...) would probably be even worse...so go take a cold shower, both of you...

Was Jesus the first creation.

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