Was Jesus the first creation.

by ajie 221 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  ithinkisee

  Nate said,

  I can take either side in the debate and win.

  Although I am with you on your FINAL opinion on the bible ....

  I must admit, if you took the JW argument and went up against any real Greek scholar you would lose badly.

  -ithinkisee
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  JosephMalik

  AuldSoul,

  I had enough of such reasoning in the WT. This is what they do when they do not have a scriptural answer to offer.

  Joseph
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  gumby

  
  

  Joseph M.

  According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens, The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven," "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven," Yet you assume....even after you stated there are various jewish interpretations of heaven, it's talking of the earthly Roman Government. Talk about reading out of context! If you cannot read that scripture without seeing the writer was telling his readers that jesus is eternal diety, then your dub influenced.

  That's the trouble with the bible and Jesus. You can pick parts that show Jesus is really gods son and not god, or you can read in other books by different writers many scriptures that deified him to gods status.

  I think if his diciples had dicerned him as god, then when he prayed to his father they woulda been sayin....."what the hell"?????

  When you combine gnosticism writings with jewish literalists writings...you get earthly things and you get spiritual things. This seems to be the issue with the confusion as to who christ really was/is.

  Find if you will any of the epistles that mention one iota of Jesus earthly existence(eg.) Miracles, brothers, sisters, mom, dad, birth, geneology......and you won't find any. Odd isn't it? All these writers aside from the gospel writers.... and nobody uses Jesus eartly existence in their defence for the reality of jesus and who he was and what he did against opposers.

  Gumby

  Gumby

  Gumby
• 

  Hellrider

  JosephMalik and Narkissos, sorry to barge in on your discussion, but the way I see it, is:

  Ok, the thing is, we don`t want polytheism, right? Polytheism is bad. And JosephMalik, your point is that in John, where it says:

  John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God. 1:2 The Word was with God in the beginning. 1:3 All things were created by him, and apart from him not one thing was created that has been created.

  ...the "all things were created by him", this could mean (or means) only the things on the earth, not (necessarily) invisble things, like the angels, all the things in heaven, right? Now, if I think like a christian, what I`m interested in, when trying to make sense of the Bible, is to avoid contradictions! Even if we don`t consider invisible "things", the claim that Jesus is only responsible for creating the things on the earth, seen from a non-trinitarian viewpoint, causes troubles:

  isaiah 44:24 - This is what the LORD says—
  
  your Redeemer, who formed you in the womb:
  
  I am the LORD,
  
  who has made all things,
  
  who alone stretched out the heavens,
  
  who spread out the earth by myself

  The lord has "made all things", "spread out the earth by myself".

  And in Genesis, "God created the heavens and the earth". He created the earth, all the animals, the birds, the fish, the humans, etc etc. But John says (at least) that the Word did this! Seen from a christian point of view, the different parts of the Bible has to "add up", don`t they? What do you make of this, then?

  Also, I would like to question your basic claim that the "all things were created by him"-part, only refers to things on the earth. The passages doesn`t exclude heavenly "things". If the author had meant that heavenly "things" were meant to be excluded from this, I think he would have specified that.
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  Midget-Sasquatch

  Wouldn't the idea of the Memra be a good fit for how Jesus is described in those verses from Colossians?
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  JosephMalik

  According to the Jewish notion there were three heavens, The firmament, as "fowls of the heaven," "The heaven of heavens," or "the third heaven," Yet you assume....even after you stated there are various jewish interpretations of heaven, it's talking of the earthly Roman Government. Gumby, Who’s Jewish notion? Not Paul’s! Since you do not show any of this scripturally your argument is baseless. Do you know what deity is? Can you show scripturally what it means exactly? When you do then we have a basis for discussion. Deity only appears in scripture a few times so this should be real easy. The ball is in your court Gumby, have at it. Let everyone see that you know what your talking about and are qualfied to be critical of the authors of this sacred text. Joseph
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  Leolaia

  Hellrider....John Day has noted that Deutero-Isaiah is engaged in a polemic against the view of God in Genesis 1. God alone created the heavens and earth, so there was no "us" and "our". He says that God does not get tired, which recalls God resting on the seventh day. He says that God does not have an image, which goes against the claim that man is made in his image, etc. etc.
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  Leolaia

  Who’s Jewish notion? Not Paul’s! Since you do not show any of this scripturally your argument is baseless.

  Paul did not give a lengthy exposition on what he meant by "third heaven", nor did he need to since the concept was well-known at the time to his readers. If we limit ourselves to only what is canonized in "scripture," we lack a lot of the everyday knowledge that Paul's readers had. Jewish literature of the time had a very clear concept on Paradise being located in third heaven, and the various levels of heaven, and of people being "taken up" into Paradise where they experience incredible things (think of the story of the three rabbis who were taken up into Paradise, one came back dead, another came back mentally deranged)....the concepts and language between the two is obvious. Why insist that Paul could not have shared such a concept? The evidence speaks for itself.
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  JosephMalik

  John Day has noted that Deutero-Isaiah is engaged in a polemic against the view of God in Genesis 1. God alone created the heavens and earth, so there was no "us" and "our". Leolaia, This much is true and supported scripturally. It is only when specific things are being discussed apart from such heavens and earth that others are involved. Who and how many and where we do not know other than the one identified as the Word. Leolaia reference: He says that God does not get tired, which recalls God resting on the seventh day. This is also true, the problem is the way the text is interpreted. No further creation is authorized for this seventh day. So animals go extinct. The earth and everything upon it must prove itself before anything else is done to sustain it further. That was the plan. Leolaia reference: He says that God does not have an image, which goes against the claim that man is made in his image, etc. etc. Again the problem is the way the text is interpreted. Love, justice, “ and let them have dominion over ” with such responsibility are enough to satisfy the text. Adam and Eve were the heavens of their time and failed. But there was still time left to correct matters and prove the creation in the day of rest allotted to it. Joseph
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  JosephMalik

  Why insist that Paul could not have shared such a concept?

  Leolaia,

  Simple. Paul fought with such Jews in all the congregations he serviced. He had revelations directly from our Lord in much the same way that John did. Paul's views would threfore be in context with scripture on the Kingdom and not in harmony with Jewish tradition.

  Joseph