Was Jesus the first creation. (page 6)

AuldSoul

Joseph, here again you are stating things to be true and assuming your stating it proves your point. You did the same thing in our paradise thread.

You have not established the things you state. Start there please. As far as I can tell, the texts (original languages) do not support your argument, history does not support your argument, the usage of the identical terms by others of the period do not support your argument.

Since I can't find any support beyond your statement, and you don't offer any support beyond your statement, I will have to accept the body of available evidence as being heavily contrary to your viewpoint.

AuldSoul

LittleToe

Didier:Permit me to take this a step further, especially given that there were clear injunctions against worshipping the creation, as Peter and the Angel attested to. I do think this aspect of it is relevant to the thread.

Is there any clear indication that Jesus was worshipped in a manner any different from the Father?

I'm thinking of some of the examples given in Revelation, in particular.

JosephMalik

Yes... and this should apply to the Roman government (which btw had a lot of visible officials and institutions representing it throughout the empire)?

Narkissos,

And Paul covered them as well with visible. Once again your argument has no merit, and the blood of Christ was not shed for the salvation of anyone off world.

Joseph

JosephMalik

AuldSoul,

You know that is not true. I gave scriptural applications of how heaven(s) was used in NT times. For example I demonstrated how it was used by Jews in place of the word God. Words like visible and invisible are simple no brainers in this case. Now if you cannot understand this or choose to ignore it fine. That is your problem not mine.

Joseph

LittleToe

Joseph, Joseph, Joseph. The tantrum, is quite unbecoming...

AuldSoul

Joseph, what you gave were examples of heaven being used in the Bible, as heaven. You gave instances of Jews using the word heavens as heavens. You SAID heavens means governments and you SAID heavens was used in place of God but offered only your word as proof of your point.

AuldSoul

Narkissos

Permit me to take this a step further, especially given that there were clear injunctions against worshipping the creation, as Peter and the Angel attested to. ; I do think this aspect of it is relevant to the thread.
Is there any clear indication that Jesus was worshipped in a manner any different from the Father?
I'm thinking of some of the examples given in Revelation, in particular.

Ross,

I think you missed my point: I tend to think "worship" is not the best translation of proskuneô in any of the above cases.

Let's forget about "worship" for a moment and revert to the concrete gesture with its symbolical overtones. We can bow (literally or symbolically) before God; people did bow before Jesus; angels bow (symbolically) before Jesus; otoh one disciple doesn't have to bow before another; neither a disciple before an angel. In spite of the variety of texts from which those actions are drawn, this makes perfect sense without resorting to the dubious (imo) concept of "worship". And it doesn't prove equality between Jesus and God, nor rules it out. I think this is about all we can draw from the use of this expression.

Deputy Dog

LT

Not to sidetrack the thread, all three are the "invisible God". Aren't they?

Jesus is the 2nd Person of the "invisible God", being the Image (the seeable part if you will) of the "invisible (triune) God".

Why would we think it refers only to the Father?

D Dog

JosephMalik

AuldSoul, Here is heaven(s) and God used as interchangeable terms. Mt 11:11 Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. Lu 7:28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he. So Heaven in scripture is not restricted to a place outside earth’s atmosphere. It has many uses especially for Jews that include earth’s atmosphere. And it includes men of importance holding positions above common man, like government officials. Php2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; Like in Col the word is used of human beings here as well as all such human beings will once again gain life in this Kingdom. Translation simply makes this a bit difficult. Or how about this one by Peter: 2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Human beings that is what Peter is talking about here. And such humans will be replaced with new ones like this: 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness. Like Colossians the word applies to human government in such texts not someplace in the universe just like the elements do not mean the planet but refers to common man dependent upon such heavens. Some would simply call this a description of Armageddon? But the reality is that words like heaven can and are used in such ways. J oseph

AuldSoul

Actually, Joseph, Matthew describes location that owns the kingdom and Luke describes the person that owns the kingdom.

Any noun can of course own another noun, as far as language construction goes. That you can change a person noun to a location noun and still be completely accurate is not uncommon at all.

For instance, suppose you and I are driving through a neighborhood with which you are unfamiliar. I could point at a specific house and say, "The yard of that man is beautiful." I could point to the same house and say, "The yard of that house is beautiful."

Both statements would be accurate, one referring to the location as owning the yard and one referring to the person as owning the yard. But you would be incorrect to assert that the house WAS the man.

I hope you followed that.

AuldSoul

Was Jesus the first creation.

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