Comments? Black Slavery

by Naeblis 108 Replies latest jw friends

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    Not at all true. Make no mistake, the vast majority of black people in America are indeed victems of slavery. Less so with every generation, provided civilization moves forward, not backwards, but yes, still very much "victims".

    If it wasn't for slavery, those people wouldn't exist. If they are victims, then so am I. I want reparations for the many times Ireland has been invaded, so the English, French and Scandinavians here had better cough up. Especially the English.

    --
    Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire

  • LDH
    LDH

    Six,

    I think the obvious answer to that is, yes.

    WHY?!?!?

    If the question is, why should we pay people who were never slaves for work they never did, isn't it the same issue in reverse?

    Why should the children and great grandchildren benefit from slaves they never kept?

    Lisa

  • SixofNine
    SixofNine

    Why Lisa?

    Because they aren't going to give away their money, no matter what the color of the long dead people whose backs their forefathers enriched themselves on are. If you can find a way to actually take it from them, more power to you. It seems impossible to the point of being silly to even discuss, imo.

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek
    The question is, if blacks who were never slaves don't deserve any money, why do the great grandchildren of those plantation owners deserve to be rich? What did they do? You mention 'blacks who were never slaves.' What about 'whites who were never plantation owners?' Do they just get to keep all of that money?

    Are you saying that I am to be held responsible for every action committed by one of my ancestors which would nowadays be considered a crime, and that I am to be given reparations for every such action that was committed against my ancestors? How far back in time should we go? What if you are a white American but your ancestors arrived in America after slavery had been abolished and they never made a single penny from the slave trade. Will they also have their tax money taken from them to support black Americans whose ancestors also arrived after the abolition of slavery? What level of absurdity does it have to go to?

    --
    Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire

  • Satanus
    Satanus

    LDH

    You made some good observations. I was sarcastic, but i included reparations with repatriation: money, diamonds whatever. I believe the african countries from which slave were bought also share a level of responsibility. If americans whose ancestores may or may not have benefited from slavery must pay, make the africans whose ancestors may or may not have benefited pay as well. It was shown that selling their people created a tremendous economy. As well, since slavery was promoted in the US while it was a british colony, britain also has a debt. Let's not forget the middlemen, the ship owners and financiers, many of whom were jewish. They also made tremedous profits from this trade.

    Yes, parts of africa are arid as are parts of the us. Nevertheless africa may surpace the US in its natural resources. Minerals, oil, timber,fertile soil. The boers of south africa and zambabwe demonstrate the potential. Through their tenacity, ingenuity and hard work, the boers managed to bring the standard of living of sa to first world standards. Since the suspenion of apartheid, the country has gone downhill. Its crime rate is one of the highest in the world. I'm not trying to justify apartheid, but demonstrate the inability of the natives for the most part, to build countries in a way that is considered modern.

    Could blacks be educated to live in what we call a modern way? Much effort and money has been spent to try to improve the US black ghettos. What has resulted? It may take generations. Blacks who come from the carribean islands do better here than those who with ancestors originally here.

    Some will say that african countries couldn't because of foriegn meddling. The truth is that all countries meddle in the affairs of other countries as they are able. The boers fought two wars to repel the british, in which they did not succeed. Nevertheless, they succeeded in creating huge farms, supporting the economies of their respective countries. America fought a rebellion for independance from britain, and is currently retaliating for what was likely foreign action. Answers are not easy.

    S

  • LDH
    LDH

    Six,

    Because they aren't going to give away their money, no matter what the color of the long dead people whose backs their forefathers enriched themselves on are

    That's exactly the answer I was looking for. So it's ok for ancestors of one race to enrich ancestors of another race, and there can never be and evening out?

    Some of you have mentioned slavery going all the way back to Biblical times, as though that excuses it. You must also have forgotten the concept of Jehovah's Jubilee Year. Every 7th year EVERYONE was returned to a level playing field. Therefore, if you somehow found yourself enslaved, at least you had the knowledge that at the end of the 7th year you would get SOME level of equality.

    I think it rather odd, this notion of 'white man's guilt' that some of you have mentioned.

    I don't think I'd be willing to give up my millions if my great grandparents had owned slaves, and yet should I wonder why I attempt to assuage my conscience by sitting on a charitable board here or making an endowment to the United Negro College Fund there?

    Funky Derek asks:

    Are you saying that I am to be held responsible for every action committed by one of my ancestors which would nowadays be considered a crime, and that I am to be given reparations for every such action that was committed against my ancestors? How far back in time should we go?

    Not at all. What I'm saying is, if you're going to pay reparations for one group, you have to pay it for all.

    Six says ancestral stories are

    Kinda like the bible?

    True enough, some of the Bible is no more than fables, but does that mean that EVERYTHING in the Bible isn't true?

    How did you expect slaves to hand down stories of their homeland to their children? They weren't allowed to speak their own language, or do anything that was reflective of their homeland. Oral traditions became critical. Some of them are so reliable, that is how black Americans are able to trace their geneology, (which is something white Americans mostly have no problem doing). No records were kept, families were ripped apart with no regard for structure.

    This is also how Native Americans document their history, even currently!

    It's too bad you have to be so unappreciative of something you don't understand, Six.

    And NO I am NOT saying we should pay reparations. But is there nothing we can do, as a nation of great thinkers?

    Funky Derek you always crack me up, because you don't even live in the US (if I'm not mistaken). The US considers itself the vanguard for human rights, and yet it was only 30 years ago that signs still hung "Niggers not allowed here." Your perspective, while valuable, is certainly different from the perspective of an American who has educated themselves on the history of this country.

    It never ceases to amaze me, how this country so easily ridicules black Americans. So many jokes about 'baby's mommas' etc etc. Don't we understand that is the price we are paying for destroying the family unit of the African? Slavery has at times been a necessary evil, but cruelty to slaves and the tearing apart of family is NOT a hallmark of all slavery.

    FunkyDerek, yes, Irish were slaves many times. And yet. you know you are Irish? Can you ask a black American what country he is from? Africa is not one country, it is many different countries. Yet, there is probably not one black American who knows what country his ancestors are from, what language they spoke etc etc.

    It's no wonder they have invented a whole new culture for themselves. Hip Hop or whatever you want to call it.

    Very sad dialogue. I see most have ingrained ideas that can not even be questioned without offense or incredulity, let alone changed. Very sad.

    Lisa

  • LDH
    LDH

    Funky ,

    If it wasn't for slavery, those people wouldn't exist

    .

    This is such a foolish argument!

    If it wasn't for the potato famine, most Irish Americans wouldn't be here either! [:>]

    Lisa

  • LDH
    LDH

    Saint,

    Thank you for your words. It is possible to discuss race without becoming polarized.

    Lisa

  • funkyderek
    funkyderek

    LDH,

    Not at all. What I'm saying is, if you're going to pay reparations for one group, you have to pay it for all.

    Which was my point. Everyone's ancestors have at some time been victims and everyone's ancestors have at some time been perpetrators of atrocities. The idea of paying reparations to any group quickly becomes ridiculous.

    Funky ,
    If it wasn't for slavery, those people wouldn't exist
    .

    This is such a foolish argument!

    I don't think so. It's an unusual one, granted, but I think it has merit. If these people's ancestors had remained in Africa, their lives would have been very different, possibly worse than in America. They would have met different people, done different things. They would have had different descendants. The people to whom the reparations would be paid would not exist without slavery. It's difficult to argue that they should be compensated for something which benefitted them.

    If it wasn't for the potato famine, most Irish Americans wouldn't be here either!

    I know, and Ireland would be horrendously overpopulated and probably still a third world country. I almost certainly wouldn't exist. The famine was a terrible thing but not without its benefits in the long run.

    --
    Those who can induce you to believe absurdities can induce you to commit attrocities - Voltaire

  • drahcir yarrum
    drahcir yarrum

    Lisa:

    There is no mass exodus of blacks back to Africa. And they are certainly free to go. Why do they stay? Because they know that they have freedom and opportunity here that they wouldn't have in Africa. They know that the American dream exists here for them as it does for anyone else. You appear to be living in the past. You seem to believe that there is still an institutional barrier for blacks to fully participate in this country. Whatever barriers exist, exist because of the cultural resistance on the part of some blacks. Basically, you feel guilt for past suffering of blacks. Fine. Sulk over it. Take it to your god. But don't try to fix it with everyone else's money.

    My great, great grandfather had slaves before the civil war. He owned a sawmill in east Texas. After the Civil War, they could have left and some did. But most stayed on as hired hands. If they had been beaten and starved and mistreated as portrayed in the movies, I doubt they would have stayed on. Guess what. I have no money from that sawmill and I own no land from it's past existence. My family did not inherit one dime from it that I've ever seen. I'm 150 years removed from it. I'm NOT Guilty!

    If you really want to get down to the truth of the matter, if it weren't for slavery in this country, many of those slaves would have died in Africa of starvation, disease and tribal wars. At least their offspring have gained the freedom and opportunity that would never have existed in Africa. Maybe they owe my family a debt of gratitude.

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