I must say I am getting concerned about the Nazi like anti-Israel tone of this thread.
Drahcir bin Yarrum
Comments? Black Slavery
by Naeblis 108 Replies latest jw friends
-
-
Satanus
sawthelight
Good point. Why are jews screaming that the allies didn't free them soon enough? Gratitude in the form of $$ to america would seem to be in order. Instead, after being rescued, they want endless payment from the US.
One more question: why does the US not have an airbase in israel, since it is the US's best ally in the middle east?
S
-
teejay
Sawthelight,
A pity there was no calvary during the time of slavery... someone to come along and do some rescuing. Damn, no need for reparations then!!
----------------------------------------------------------------I must say I am getting concerned about the Nazi like anti-Israel tone of this thread.
Drahcir,
What in hell are you talking about? Was that a joke? I simply asked why my fellow Americans had no problem shelling out two bucks every month to subsidize Israeli men, women and children but would have a fit to give a quarter to a fellow American who happened to be black.
Do you really mean to say that to criticize Israel is making one appear fascist? Like a nazi? Are you f**king crazy? Or where you joking? I hope you were joking.
peace,
tj -
drahcir yarrum
teejay:
I want you to go back through the last two pages of posts on this thread and you can see for yourself that an argument is being made for reparations(repair, amends) to blacks for slavery, based upon the U.S. providing foreign aid to Israel. Nobody has brought up foreign aid to Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia or anyone else but Israel. We provide in excess of $3 billion annually to Egypt. Who and why the U.S. spends foreign aid on is totally irrelevant to whether blacks living in the United States in 2001 deserve or should get reparations from the government. They are not mutally exclusive. It's a disconnect. I'm not suggesting that people who don't want foreign aid payments to Israel are anti-Semitic anymore than others could claim that NOT wanting to pay reparations to blacks in the U.S. is racist, uncaring or insensitive.
The whole notion of paying handouts to people in this country based on race is in and of itself an absurdity. How much money would it take to make amends? What criteria would you use to determine that repairs were adequate? What about successful blacks in our society, and there are now significant numbers? Should they also get a handout? If not, why not? What about blacks who came to the United States since slavery was abolished? Are they too entitled to a hand out? As I said before, the whole idea is intellectual silliness. If you as a white person are so racked with guilt that you want to rid yourself of your demons, sit down today and write a check to the United Negro College Fund or the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Quit trying to transfer your guilt on other innocent white people. Some want to argue that because the government made payments to Japanese descendants of WWII internment or providing reservations to American Indians, that the precedent holds. I disagree, because tracking those who actually descended from slaves is almost impossible 140 years after the fact and these were also bad decisions that have not gained us freedom from collective guilt. You can't buy that with money.
Are you a Nazi because you don't want our tax dollars given freely to Israel? NO! Are you being consistent by ignoring that being given to Egypt and other Arab nations? OF COURSE NOT!
So my whole point is we as a nation, regardless of our color, need to stop this emotionalistic wallowing in racial guilt and finger pointing. Move on, do something positive to promote good race relations and quit looking for government solutions.
Drahcir bin Yarrum
-
teejay
Drahcir,
Thank you for your note but especially the clarification. You (seriously) had me worried.
You make excellent, excellent points. What you have said are some of the very reasons I don't believe in reparations, as I said earlier in this very thread. You wouldn't believe the arguments I have gotten into with black people (friend AND family) who thought my view was crazy, anti-Black, Uncle Tom. Whatever.
My point is: how can you (not you personally) loudly object to one government subsidy on one hand and on the other hand acquiesce to a payout that's ten times greater... I don't know, seems a bit... uh... interesting. My bringing Israel into the mix was just a way to make a point. As reasonable as your (and my) opposition to slave reparations is, my point about Israel is one not easily dismissed. Bringing up the fact that, "well... the U.S. gives to other nations, too," is not addressing the point I made about the diverse reactions that people have to what would essentially be the same event. I don't think foreign aid to Egypt lies at the heart of many people's objection to slave reparations.
Again, thanks for clearing up that nazi thing. I can't speak for others, but I think no one here have expressed anti-Semitic views, any more than I'm an Uncle Tom for not believing in reparations. People throw words around sometimes without giving enough thought to their meaning, imo.
Take care, buddy.
tj -
Julie
Help me to get some facts straight here---anyone. I am under the impression that we give Israel $3 Billion a year in aid. Is this correct? (I am against meal tickets to Israel, Jews are a large voting block in US though so good luck finding a politician to voice opposition)
If this is the case then I wonder about the math being applied here. Is it the White House's "new math"?
Where do we get $2 a month for aid to Israel and .25 for reparations on the slavery issue? Didn't I see somewhere in this thread Johnnie Cochran has filed a trillion dollar lawsuit against US for reparation? Of course I am sure I needn't point out the stupidity of such steps to the black community (i.e. Cochran would take 1/3 off the top of any settlement, really lessening the reparation).
I guess the bottom line here is where are these figures coming from? At .25 a month (per taxpayer) what sort of settlement are you talking?
If more people would forget the reparation approach and take a broader approach, as in demanding and lobbying for some serious community funding (especially education), we'd all be better off. Until the view is broadened we will continue to go nowhere.
Julie
-
teejay
Thanks, Julie, for your participation. Perhaps YOU will answer my question.
I am under the impression that we give Israel $3 Billion a year in aid. Is this correct?
More like $5 billion. See http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.html. There, among other things, it says, "The common figure given for U.S. aid to Israel is $3 billion per year -- $1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. As impressive as this figure is, however, since it represents about one-sixth of total U.S. foreign aid, the true figure is even more remarkable. It is difficult, however, to arrive at an exact number since much of the money the U.S. gives Israel is buried in the budgets of other government agencies, primarily the Defense Department." Check the site for the entire article.
If this is the case then I wonder about the math being applied here. Is it the White House's "new math"?
No. It's your grade school's old math.
Where do we get $2 a month for aid to Israel and .25 for reparations on the slavery issue?
Using the old math, divide 5 billion by the number of U.S. citizens listed by the earlier cited. I believe it was page four of this thread. I forget the number... a little over 200 million. The .25 was an arbitrary figure I made up to make a point.
Didn't I see somewhere in this thread Johnnie Cochran has filed a trillion dollar lawsuit against US for reparation?
I don't know about that, but knowing Mr. Cochran, it wouldn't surprise me.
Of course I am sure I needn't point out the stupidity of such steps to the black community (i.e. Cochran would take 1/3 off the top of any settlement, really lessening the reparation).
No, you needn't point out that particular aspect of Black stupidity. The real stupidity of the Black community is to think that anyone would even consider paying them for the blood, sweat and tears that their ancestors paid toward the formation of this country. I mean, other than black people, who cares about slavery today? I'm serious.
I guess the bottom line here is where are these figures coming from? At .25 a month (per taxpayer) what sort of settlement are you talking?
One, from government agencies; the other out of thin air, from me. I just figured that if taxpayers had no problem paying two dollars every month, why make a fuss over one more quarter? Millions would, and that's my point. And THAT is my question. Why????
If more people would forget the reparation approach and take a broader approach, as in demanding and lobbying for some serious community funding (especially education), we'd all be better off. Until the view is broadened we will continue to go nowhere.
Look for 'us' to go nowhere. Money, tight already, just got a whole lot tighter.
peace,
tj -
Julie
Hi Teejay--
Thanks for the info on funding for Israel. It does look as though some supposition is involved but it easy to believe the figure exceeds 3. I do not like it but with the huge Jewish voting block we have in the states do you think any politician is ever going to voice opposition? It would take a tidal wave of reaction from the public, never happen.
:No, you needn't point out that particular aspect of Black stupidity.
Oops! What did I actually say??? "I am sure I needn't point out the stupidity of such steps to the black community...". I think I was implying the black community was too *smart* to fall for such a self-serving act on the part of Cochran. Nothing at all about "black stupidity". What's that about?
:The real stupidity of the Black community is to think that anyone would even consider paying them for the blood, sweat and tears that their ancestors paid toward the formation of this country. I mean, other than black people, who cares about slavery today? I'm serious
Well as slavery is no longer practiced in America, I will admit that American slavery is rather low on my list of concerns. I have some thoughts on what should be done for the disadvantaged, wrote them earlier in the thread, here they are:
-----------------------------------------------
There is something that smacks of selfishness when it comes to the topic of a cash-settlement reparation. As I made clear earlier I am all for the government investing much more than they currently do into those of our citizens who are truly underpriveldeged, again, no matter their color. We don't put nearly enough resources into education of both parents and children. There has to be more opportunity for these people but they also have to be prepared for the opportunity (i.e. educated and healthy). Now I don't narrow this down to blacks because the fact is there are underprivledged people of all color--no matter what your view this is a fact.Not only would significant investments in communities benefit those alive today but if done right could benefit many generations to come. Long term results. That is not a characteristic I see even remotely guaranteed with a cash pay-out style of reparation.
-----------------------------------------------You said:
I just figured that if taxpayers had no problem paying two dollars every month, why make a fuss over one more quarter? Millions would, and that's my point. And THAT is my question. Why????On the dough that is shelled out, it is all part of a greater problem in our system and the answer is painfully simple: apathy.
About more of the dough being shelled out, easy again, too much "I got mine you get yours". Plus, there needs to be agreement on what form you take, cash pay-out bad, community building projects good.
That's my take.
Julie
-
Cassiline
I found this article written by a black man and thought you might want to seen his views. This does not suggest that these are my views, just a different perspective.
Who Should Pay for Reparations? Black Americans... Obviously
Culture/Society Editorial
Source: The National Center
Author: Mike Green
Project 21 New Visions: Who Should Pay for Reparations? Black Americans... Obviously - May 2001New Visions Commentary
The National Leadership Network of Conservative African-Americans
Who Should Pay for Reparations? Black Americans... Obviously
By Mike Green
A New Visions Commentary paper published May 2001 by The National Center
for Public Policy Research * 777 N. Capitol St. NE #803, Washington, DC 20002, 202/371-1400, Fax 202-408-7773, E-Mail [email protected], Web http://www.nationalcenter.org.
Reprints permitted provided source is credited.Who should pay for reparations? Black Americans... obviously.
Black Americans have pondered a debt due for slavery since Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation. Few would deny a debt is owed for the centuries of institutionalized slave labor, beatings, rapes and murders spanning generations, but the details pose questions.
Clearly, there are businesses and families that profitted and cannot deny or defend their involvement. But how much is owed, by whom and who is owed? I believe I have an answer that may not appease everyone, but it's rational and won't divide our nation or raise taxes.
America is paying for slavery. Some think slavery was abolished without white assistance. But no all-black insurgence would have ended slavery without the help of concerned whites. For example, Harriet Tubman could not have freed hundreds of slaves through the Underground Railroad without the selfless sacrifice of sympathetic whites.
Dr. Martin Luther King, in his famous "I Have a Dream" speech, cited the efforts of whites and blacks working together. Unequivocally, he stated, "We cannot walk alone." Black leaders who live off Dr. King's name readily divide the races, however, encouraging hatred and pouring salt into the healing wounds of slavery. They also neglect to point out that the doors of opportunity are open.
Already, more than 40% of black families have a middle-class standard of living. In nearly every industry, blacks are not only represented, but excel. This is pretty good for being just 13% of the population, and with half of us still under the age of 18. Oprah Winfrey and Bill Cosby are among America's most beloved celebrities. Colin Powell received the highest poll rating of any potential presidential candidates a few years ago. When we seek out the most successful blacks, we find many were born when blacks had intact families... albeit very poor ones.
There are still challenges to overcome, but it's obvious racism is not a successful method of preventing blacks from succeeding. However, internal turmoil, liberal politics and an abandonment of morals has done to black America what hundreds of years of slavery failed to do... unravel the black family and turn us against one another.
There was a "Great Sellout" of our race in 1965, just after passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964. As a result, many have succumbed to dependency on - and switched their misguided loyalties to -another slavemaster... Uncle Sam.
According to government statistics, 650,000 black babies were born in 1965. But only 50,000 of them were born out of wedlock. That means, despite the residual effects of slavery and poverty that comes from starting with nothing, blacks only had an eight percent illegitimacy rate. Despite centuries of slavery, black families survived.
That same year, over 400 new government programs were introduced into poverty-stricken communities. Liberal politicians offered poor mothers cash for having children. A monthly government paycheck went to any mother that applied... if there was no working male at home. By 1975, the black illegitimacy rate skyrocketed to an epidemic 70%. Three out of every four black babies are still born out of wedlock. The government slavemaster succeeded in a single decade what centuries of oppression failed to do... destroy the black family.
How? Many black ministers, doctors and political leaders played along. They sold us out. Just as some African tribal leaders sold blacks to whites with little regard for their safety or future, many modern black leaders sold us to the liberals for political gain.
With black leaders telling us the government will give us something for nothing, we bought into a false dream that evolved into a socialist nightmare. Realistically, our problems must instead be overcome through personal success. They didn't tell us that.
The road out of the ghetto is paved with the blood of slaves who hoped the future would have the very opportunities that exist today for every black boy and girl lucky enough to be born in this country... because of slavery. Today, any child who wants to learn can be taught to read and write and solve mathematic and scientific equations.
This is where we find the debt that must be paid. It is a debt of gratitude. It is a debt I owe to my ancestors who lived their tortured lives as slaves.
Who owes the debt of reparations?
We, as black Americans, owe reparations for slavery. We must succeed so that our ancestors will not have died in vain. Their presence in this country has given us an opportunity unique in comparison to any other black community on the planet. There is no excuse for the things many of us have done to squander what those before us died to provide.
Illegitimacy and illiteracy are now the worst enemies of black America. There is no excuse for black leaders to ignore these problems while focusing on the irrelevant and mundane. Those of us who abandoned our children should be ashamed that we sentenced them to the hardships our ancestors hoped to eliminate with their sweat and blood.
There is nothing in the lives of black men and women in America today that can rival the hardships endured by generations of our families who never knew freedom or the opportunity to pursue their dreams.
It is time to repay the debt we owe to our ancestors. It is time for us to make a concerted effort to ensure our children are well-educated, law-abiding, God-fearing contributors to the advancement of mankind.
We can succeed. The evidence is all around us. We should celebrate the good news and attend to the duties of getting off the wrong path we took in 1965. Our children will be better off for it. Their success is a fair and just payment to our ancestors... and the benefit we reap is our own reward.
C
When the pain of being where we are, becomes greater than our fear of letting go...we will risk and heal and grow.