Comments? Black Slavery

by Naeblis 108 Replies latest jw friends

• 

  BlackMan4Life

  Greetings - Hot topic indeed! Good points on both sides. This debate will go on forever b/c like most controveries it's largely a political issue. However, there are many folks who sincerely believe in the cause.

  I live in NYC and grew up in the 'ghetto' (Harlem & The Lower East Side) and most African Amercicans I know don't really need any reparation money (or any other hand outs), I think it's the principle they/we are concerned about.

  As WEB Dubois said at the start of the 20th century - the biggest problem in America is the race issue. The same is true 100 years later. Whether folks want to admit it or not, there is such a thing call 'white privilege' and 'racial profiling.' When people see me, they first see a 'black man' and a 'man' second. If you thought African American were profiled, wait and see how much Middle Eastern folks will be profiled :-( This prejudice is nothing new, In fact, it's human nature. If it's not skin color it'll be something else.

  When folks discuss reparations seriously they aren't talking about monitary gains but other gains to 'level a playing field' that has been lopsided for over 200 years. We can pull ourselves up by 'the bootstrips' all we want, but for the most part, there will always be some resistance to our progress. Again, it's human nature - if Blacks had the power over Whites, they would do all they can do to keep it.

  Reparatons is not a cure all, but it's a start in the healing process. What makes this issue such as sensitive one is the fact that it has never really been discuss. Whenever it's brought up people what to 'whitewash' it.

  It reminds me of the BORG - If they would be honest and say 'OK we lied to you, God is not using us, we apologize for thousands of people dying b/c of our rules/policies, your bible interpetions are just as good as ours' then they wouldn't have so many enemies, folks could respect them and see them for what they are - some type of club/cult, join it you want. But instead they put the blame on their members for any hardships or crisis in conscieous experienced and demonized or alienate the member for thinking independantly. The same applies to America (can you beleive they walked out of a world conference on racsim?) They continuely disrepect African Americans for centuries and expect them to forget about it. It ain't happen - Proper closure is a must.

  In any event, this WTC tragedy helps me to see what's really important in life - and that's life itself whether it's black or white.

  Peace (wishful thinking)
  Larry :)
• 

  drahcir yarrum

  LDH:

  It's called civilization. An orderly way for humans to conduct their affairs as a group. We have laws of property ownership. You may not like them, but they exist. You may think they are wrong, but they exist. You simply exist in a make believe plane. As far as Indians having a better way, well they too practiced slavery. They also practiced unbelievable acts of torture on their enemies. So to assign them some noble status in the annals of humankind is absolutely ridiculous. They were nomadic savages. You are an emotional bundle ready to explode.
• 

  LDH1

  Wow, Richard,

  I don't even know you and yet you are one of the most judgemental people I 'know.' Sigh. The can of Whoop Ass is now open. Not only have I remained unemotional about the whole argument, my postion has been one that maintains that race is not an easy dialogue in our country. You have resorted to vulgarities and name calling, because you have no point other than repeatedly saying "I don't want my tax dollars used on crybabies."

  So to assign them some noble status in the annals of humankind is absolutely ridiculous.

  Would you please show me where I attempted to 'elevate' Indians to "noble" status?

  As far as Indians having a better way

  
  Please tell me WHERE I said an Indian's way was better than anyone else's?!?!

  You simply exist in a make believe plane.

  
  That being the case, I'd best divest myself of any of the Boards of Directors I sit on. I'd hate for my peers to hear I am living in a make believe world! And here, I was under the impression that we were ALL trying to make the world a better place! Silly me!

  They were nomadic savages

  
  How fucking dare you lump all Natives in one boat! Who do you think you are?

  Would you please forward any relevant input you have on this issue to the United States Congress? I'm sure they will immediately revoke the honors they have recently bestowed upon Native American "Code Talkers" who helped them win the war, the whole time their own people were being victimized. To hear you tell it, the only people worth ANYTHING in this great big world are White Americans!

  (since you haven't educated yourself, I'll tell you it was the Choctaw tribe that assisted our government in WWI and the Navajo that assisted in WWII) Can you imagine, our big ol' government needing the assistance of a group of nomadic savages?

  You just keep listening to Rush Limbaugh and Dr. Laura Schlepp-inger. Your kind of intolerance is getting more popular by the week! [8>] I am sorry to hear you won't be able to vote for Jesse Helms any more. Perhaps, though, if we are lucky, Strom Thurman will be next.

  You are an emotional bundle ready to explode.

  
  On the contrary, you are the one who has become angered by this whole topic. But, if you still are so convinced that I am 'emotional,' I hear Miss Cleo is looking for an assistant. If you don't mind sitting next to a black woman in a turban all day, that is.

  You, sir, are an asshole of great proportions. You haven't addressed one question of mine, but would rather resort to name calling and "I'm right because I say so."

  You need to attend whatever courses your blue-collar factory job is offering on cultural sensitivity, post haste.

  Lisa
• 

  Utopiano Reformato

  Lisa:

  I sent you an email about the additional info you quoted. If you can, relax about RM/MR. It's only life.
• 

  drahcir yarrum

  LDH:

  Thank you for the emotional rant. You've proven my point.

  You also struggle with contextual issues regarding my statements about American Indians. You and I both know that I was talking about American Indians at the time the Europeans settled this country. Not contempory American life and Indians. I hope I'm not invested in any companies of which you are on the board of directors.

  If you ever decide to answer one of my questions about why we should pay reparations please give it a try, i.e. What will be gained? Who will be payed reparations? How much will be paid? Will it be a lump sum or as an anuity? Will blacks offer a quid quo pro for reparations, i.e. agreeing that this will be the end of the slavery debate? Will we all live happily ever after?

  Your response is an emotional, shouldn't we pay reparations because it's the right thing to do? Says you! If that isn't your position, then you must agree with me, in which case I missed that acknowledgement by you.

  So you see, throughout these threads I've asked these questions and more. You and others chose to ignore the questions and lift statements out of context for whatever uncertain point you struggled to make.

  Have a nice evening.
• 

  LDH1

  Richard,

  Because of who you think I am, you have read FAR TOO MUCH into my posts.

  I have NEVER espoused reparations, only pointed out some valid arguments for the legal precedents which have been set in this and other lands.

  My position is more similar to Julie's than either YOURS or UR's, which I think are both hardline leftist and rightist.

  You say that :
  

  You also struggle with contextual issues regarding my statements about American Indians. You and I both know that I was talking about American Indians at the time the Europeans settled this country. Not contempory American life and Indians

  so easily. You refer to 'civilization' and 'nomadic savages', but then backpedal and say you're referring to Indians 'a long time ago.'

  Without the Indian's assistance, white man would have never survived the first winter. That's why we celebrate Thanksgiving.

  In thanks, the white man bought Manhattan Island for a boxful of cheap trinkets, shortly after they kindly handed out smallpox infected blankets.

  Now who was civilized and who were savages?

  All things that are legal are not advantageous, as the Apostle Paul pointed out.

  There is NO RACE that is above reproach on matters of how they treat their fellow human beings. BlackMan succinctly stated, if the shoe were on the other foot, whites would have been treated just as badly.

  AMEN.

  I don't think my white relatives were 'the Great Satan.' Neither do I think blacks are free from culpability in the way they use the opportunities they have access to.

  You say I am emotional. Perhaps you are right. Since I read articles two months ago about the chocolate industry and slave labor, I can't bring myself to eat a chocolate bar.
  http://www.mft.co.uk/
  * http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/africa/newsid_946000/946952.stm

  For sure, there's no white slave owners on Africa's Ivory coast. That doesn't make it any more palatable for me. If you can eat a choclate bar without thinking of a little 6 yr old that's been abducted to pick cacao beans, so be it. I can't. If that makes me emotional, so be it. I put my money where my mouth is. Or in this case, isn't.

  I surely didn't start slavery, I mentioned my family never owned slaves. I didn't stop it either. At 32, I'm too young to remember most of the civil rights struggle.

  However, it is my responsibility to leave the world a better place. That is the burden I have.

  I didn't answer your question on reparations because most of them are hypothetical, and can't be answered. Responsiblity, guilt, nor victimization can ever be bought and paid for.

  There are, however, things our society can and must do. And until we willingly step up to the plate and accept responsilibity, we're gonna keep on hearing about reparations.

  I do find it odd that Bill Clinton went to Africa and apologised to the Africans for slavery, but never had the balls to do it in this country! Why? An apology means you've accepted responsibility!

  I would far prefer it if our leaders would have the balls to say, "Slavery is a scar on this great nation's sould. We won't pay ONE RED CENT in reparations. We will, however, ......."

  I hope I live to see that day.

  And you too.
• 

  Michael3000

  Richard, uh, Drahcir - you are completely off-base on this. Japanese-Americans and Jews in America have been granted reparations, why not African-Americans? It's not like they own and operate casinos like the Native Americans. I say, this country needs to pay up! I'm with BigBoi on this one...My 2 cents...

  --Michael

  "Any day spent NOT knocking on doors is a good day!"
• 

  teejay

  Personally, I do not believe in reparations.

  As heinous as slavery was, the abuses attendant with that atrocity simply cannot be undone today. Simply put, from about 1620 when the Dutch landed in the New World with the first shipload of Africans for sale until it was federally outlawed in 1865, generations of Africans were... well... fucked. Get over it. Their services, their sacrifices, in helping to found one of the world's greatest countries ever, have been appreciated, all right, but that's all the thanks they are going to get. Thank you. Now, go away. Move along.

  Okay... I'm down with that. Can't change the past, yadda yadda.

  On the flip side of the coin, the descendants of those slave owners who got rich on the backs of slaves should be allowed to keep all their wealth (and all the advantages it entails) that has been passed down to them through the generations. People have been taking advantage of the weak, the less connected, the fewer in number, since Cain slew Abel. Pre-Civil War American slavery wasn't the first case of barbarity and exploitation of a people; it surely won't be the last.

  Okay. I'm down with that, too. A bunch of men got over and today there is a bunch of people walking around who have a better life for it. Cool. It's just the good ol' American Way.

  Here's what bothers me:

  --------------

  U.S. aid to Israel: about $5 billion dollars annually
  Year 2000 - Israel's total population: 5,842,454
  Year 2000 - U.S population older than 14: 217,007,918

  Payment each man, woman, and infant Israeli receives annually from the U.S.: $855.80, or $71.32 monthly
  Cost of payment to each U.S. citizen above the age of 14: $23.04

  Source:
  http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/indexgeo.html
  http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/010201/0101015.html

  --------------

  What I find interesting is when a people whose foreparents acutally had a hand in building the country step up and ask for money -- albeit money they are not going to get and money it's debatable they are even entitled to -- there rises a chorus of dissension that's so loud it moves the ground. On the other hand, when it's mentioned that billions are being sent elsewhere to a people who have never done ANYTHING for the U.S., silence reigns. In other words...

  One group wants money that was owed but never paid to their ancestors, and there's serious and outspoken disagreement.

  Another group is regularly paid monies for having done nothing and not a whimper is heard.

  Could someone help me? I mean, if I have to pay out $2 every month along with every other American, may I at least know what the tax is for?
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  TJ:

  You raised some very important questions and the government links were informative. I believe it is a major problem.

  Perhaps our leaders are more superstitious than we realize, and given their anglo-saxon WASP backgrounds, they may actually believe it bring's some type of blessing/luck/favor/approval from some divine source to continue assisting Israel.
• 

  Utopian Reformist

  Hey Lisa:

  Good morning. Nice work and I am going to join this "chocolate" boycotting coalition. It's too bad, because I white chocolate happens to be my personal favorite.

  P.S. I am not an extreme left-winger. I always deplored the facade of communism, like religion, that draws followers who wind up exploited by a select few demagogues.

  I don't think I am a right-winger either, I am just somewhere in the middle.