by Naeblis 108 Replies latest jw friends
Utopian Reformist:
You don't get it. You should drop to your knees every night and thank your lucky stars that you live in this country. Stop whining about principle and make the most of what you have. Not what you think someone owes you. It's pathetic and it doesn't speak well of you.
By the way, if you ever get reparations, and I hope you don't, they will be paid based on LAW passed by congress and not on principle. The checks will be cut on paper and not on principle.
RM/MR:
Finally, you make statements that I can find agreeable. I count my blessings very carefully, every day. Yes, I am glad I was brought here from another place.
I counted my blessings when dodging PLO snipers in West Beirut in '83 and Cuban snipers in Grenada later that year. I also remember Panama on two occasions and Operation Bright Star in Cairo in '85.
I don't cheat on my taxes (I will start however, now that I am no longer a JW) and I have never committed any felonies. I have earned my education and my free speech the hard way.
Have you ever lived in the projects? Have you ever used food stamps? Have you ever humiliated when filling out forms and asking (treated like we were begging) for assistance in public offices?
Until you experience any of these things, you have at least partial bias in your frame of reference. Think about it, that's all I can ask as your fellow american and fellow member of this forum.
"Ave Mundi - Morituri te Salutamus!"
Utopian Reformist:
Because I am not black, I don't understand and I am biased.
OK, if you say so.
I would like to add another rational thought to this thread as it seems the irrational are approaching majority and on both sides of the issue.
There is something that smacks of selfishness when it comes to the topic of a cash-settlement reparation. As I made clear earlier I am all for the government investing much more than they currently do into those of our citizens who are truly underpriveldeged, again, no matter their color. We don't put nearly enough resources into education of both parents and children. There has to be more opportunity for these people but they also have to be prepared for the opportunity (i.e. educated and healthy). Now I don't narrow this down to blacks because the fact is there are underprivledged people of all color--no matter what your view this is a fact.
Not only would significant investments in communities benefit those alive today but if done right could benefit many generations to come. Long term results. That is not a characteristic I see even remotely guaranteed with a cash pay-out style of reparation.
And I wanted to note, I saw somewhere in this thread how someone mentioned that open discrimination was widely practised up until recently. This is true and it is shameful. I would just like to remind you all how many white people risked life and limb (or careers, or social status or any number of things) to put a stop to that. Just so we give credit where credit is due.
Investment in all people and all communities is the answer. Without it we go nowhere. Arguing about who is to blame or just how bad slavery was won't get us anywhere either. Solutions that have long term results, that is where we should look to go.
Julie, who would like to point out that every "people" have been mistreated/enslaved at one time or another (though the Vikings fared pretty well except for an occasional, notable ass-whoppin' {i.e. 1066 and that whole Tostig mistake})
Hey RM/MR:
You do not necessarily have to be black to understand oppression and suffering that has not affected you personally, but you do you need examples like the ones I provided if you deny it's validity.
Only you can say or publicly demonstrate your bias,or lack threreof by your position on the issues. You make solid points from your point of reference, but because it is a racial issue, it is a multifaceted situation. I think I understand you and your position. If I did not have any exposure, I mean integrated daily exposure to the black community and black side of issues, then I would definitely feel exactly the same as you do right now!
You can't be faulted. We are all products of our environments. Yours may have lacked a sufficient, deep, integrated exposure and blending with the many sides of the black community, or maybe you are a victim of urban crime. I don't know. I know you are intelligent, that counts enough for me.
"Ave Mundi - Morituri te Salutamus!"
Please explain to me why reparations need to be a part of the black experience. What will be gained from it, other than income being redistributed from ALL taxpayers, including blacks, to other folks who cannot determine the monetary nature of the harm done to, not them, but their ancestors? (Many won't be able to make a claim based on ancestry because not all blacks trace their ancestry back to slavery). Will reparations be the end of the matter? Can white people abandon their collective guilt after reparations are made? Will blacks give up their victim status? If those conditions were met and these solutions could be reached, I'd be willing to kick in some cash. See, no one can answer those questions because those questions won't be asked.
So the issue isn't monetary reparations. The issue is, until we all live in the here and now, abandoning the past, we will never reach a solution to the racial problems facing us, both black and white.
Julie,
You make some good points about investment in the underprivileged, no matter their color.
Our society is going to pay for it, either way. It seems an investment in the long term education would be the most feasible option.
Richard, you said:
Whatever barriers exist, exist because of the cultural resistance on the part of some blacks. Basically, you feel guilt for past suffering of blacks. Fine. Sulk over it. Take it to your god. But don't try to fix it with everyone else's money.
Actually, I don't feel any guilt, just so we're clear. However, there are valid points to be made on BOTH sides of the arguments which is something it seems you don't accept. Your position, therefore, which holds that you are right about everything on matters of black America, is one of ignorance! It is YOU who have prejudged my motivations. As far as fixing problems with 'everyone else's money,' let me make it clear that as a US taxpayer it is not only MY right but my responsibility to have a say in how that money is spent. That's why I vote.
The issue of reparations is very difficult, both sides often becoming polarized.
Yet, the Jewish are now receiving settlements for being victimized by the Swiss banking system, which claimed to be neutral throughout the Nazi Holocaust.
Our Federal government actually pays a subsidy (cash) to descendents of Native Americans. Don't know if you knew that, Richard. A check, on a monthly basis, for what was wrongfully taken from them. I hope you don't also begrudge the Native Americans for being victimized!
My family still owns land in the South, land which I will inherit upon the death of one or both of my parents. No, I didn't do ANYTHING to inherit that land. It's my birthright according to law. I can't just parcel it out acre by acre to any black person that wants it.
But hey, it was our nation's president who promised 40 acres and a mule to it's citizens. Unfortunately, the 40 acres they were giving away actually belonged to the Native peoples that lived here, ha ha. It's easy to give away something that isn't yours.
And some of you seem to have gotten the wrong impression, that I want to take duckets of cash and ladle it out to every black person in America. WRONG. My position is similar to Julie's, because I think it's the only way to address the long term issues of victimization inflicted upon people of color by this government.
It is unfortunate that there are those who scream 'crybaby' every time someone mentions the word reparations.
Julie says:
I would just like to remind you all how many white people risked life and limb (or careers, or social status or any number of things) to put a stop to that. Just so we give credit where credit is due.
Julie, not one tenth as many white people risked their lives as black people. There are always righteous individuals who answer to a higher authority (Schindler's list) but the onus of the struggle is upon the oppressed. Ha ha, it's kind of funny. The only thing blacks COULD risk is their life, because they had no 'career' or 'social status' to speak of.
Not so long ago, when a black person told another black person, "My father is in banking," it meant he was a janitor at the local bank. [8>]
Our country has made great strides towards equality, but until we can get rid of the David Dukes, Jesse Helms and the Al Sharptons and Louis Farrakhans, Usama bin Laden's got nothing to worry about. We'll destroy ourselves.
Hi LDH,
: Our society is going to pay for it, either way. It seems an investment in the long term education would be the most feasible option.
Exactly. Another thing to consider is just what we are paying FOR. I mean who wouldn't rather see their money go into education and other constructive projects instead of prisons? If education and opportunity are provided to all children/people just think of how much crime would be reduced.
: Julie, not one tenth as many white people risked their lives as black people. There are always righteous individuals who answer to a higher authority (Schindler's list) but the onus of the struggle is upon the oppressed. Ha ha, it's kind of funny. The only thing blacks COULD risk is their life, because they had no 'career' or 'social status' to speak of.
(You forgot life and limb but nevermind) My point was not to take away from any of the struggle that black people endured. Maybe what some white folks did in your eyes isn't worthy of much merit but still; it wasn't something they had to do and they did it out of principle anyway. All efforts for fairness and justice are worthy of mention just the same, even if only by individuals, IMO.
Julie
LDH:
You make wonderful EMOTIONAL arguments. But you also throw out suppostion and straw men in your arguments. You managed to go from the African American experience to Native American injustices as you see them. By the way, I think it's absolutely silly to pay American Indians for the land and resources that they never owned. They were nomadic tribal societies. But I can no longer argue against your emotionalism. It's like arguing cosmology with someone who believes the moon is made out of green cheese. Have a nice evening.
As Hitler once said; "the victor will write the history books".
The struggle of native american indians is a brilliant example of exploitation. While Richard is correct in stating they were nomadic peoples, not property owners; for who can own the sky or land?
The americans wasted no time at all in taking advantage and exploiting those simple, but noble beliefs. In the end, it is all over and past. While I agree with carefully planned reparations, I don't believe the government will ever make good.
"Ave Mundi - Morituri te Salutamus!"
