Luke 23:43 the NWT

by Ade 89 Replies latest watchtower bible

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  Sea Breeze

  Rattigan - Millions of Christians reject the minority text as authoratative ... mainly because of the omissions. If you added up all the omissions in the Minority text, and subtract them from the Majority text, they would approximately equal the number of greek words in 1 and 2 Peter.

  That is a lot of deletions. In two recently published translations of the New Testament – the Evangelical Heritage Version and the Modern English Version – John 3:13 ends with the phrase, “who is in heaven.”

  It is supported by the vast majority (over 95%) of Greek manuscripts, as well as manuscripts written in Old Latin, the Vulgate, the Peshitta, the Ethiopic version, and a wide variety of early patristic writers.
  
  Other people in the bible have been described as being in two places at the same time, with their body on earth and their soul or spirit in heaven at the same time. It is not unique.
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  EasyPrompt

  Luke 23:43

  
  

  Jesus died. He was asleep in death for a few days. The evildoer next to him died. That evildoer is still asleep in death. Jehovah resurrected Jesus as a spirit creature. Jesus materialized a body and a bunch of people saw him. Jesus ate with people. Then he went to heaven and he'll come back in the same way. People will see him and he'll be able to hang out and eat with people. When the evildoer is resurrected to the earthly paradise, Jesus will hang out with him too. Not everybody will live in heaven, but a person doesn't have to live in heaven to hang out with Jesus. Jesus can go where he wants and hang out with who he wants wherever he wants. He's Jesus.

  
  

  "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."
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  raymond frantz

  The 1st century Jews believed Paradise to be a compartment of Hades or Seol were the "blessed" went. Jesus didn't go to heaven that day neither he was asleep in the grave, he went to Seol and then to preach to the spirits in prison who are in a different compartment called Tartarus, this was a famous article of faith that all first few centuries Christians believed and recited called the "Harrowing of Hell" look it up
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  EasyPrompt

  Many of the first, second, third century Christians also read documents such as the Didache and the Shepherd of Hermas and other non-canonical works sullied by either false stories or Pharisaical traditions of men, just like today many JWs read the "Organized to Do God's Will" book or "Shepherd the Flock of God" book and consider it to have equal weight to God's Word. Jesus said to beware the leaven of the scribes and Pharisees, and we are wise to continue following that counsel today.

  
  

  Jesus did a lot of things during the days since his resurrection.

  
  

  The context of 1 Peter 3:18-20...

  
  

  "For Christ died once for all time for sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, in order to lead you to God. He was put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit. And in this state he went and preached to the spirits in prison, who had formerly been disobedient when God was patiently waiting in Noah’s day, while the ark was being constructed, in which a few people, that is, eight souls, were carried safely through the water."

  
  

  Jesus was obedient to God to the point of death. Jesus could have misused his authority, misused his power the same way the the disobedient angels did by taking advantage of the flesh of others for selfish gratification, but Jesus didn't do that. Jesus was obedient. Noah was also obedient. Noah built the ark, doing the work God assigned him. He was figuratively "resurrected" to new life by means of going to figurative "death" in the ark and then coming out of the water again at God's appointed time. When Jesus "preached to the spirits in prison" after his death and resurrection, it was Jesus' faithful example to death that proved those disobedient angels could have maintained their integrity under their much easier circumstances during their assignments back before Noah's time. The angels who were assigned to take care of humans didn't have to abuse their authority and sexually assault those in their care. They didn't have to go on power trips and demand to be worshipped. Jesus maintained his integrity under more tempting and difficult circumstances. Those wicked angels had no excuse for what they did. Jesus' faithfulness to death sealed the deal for the judgment on those wicked angels, and their condemnation is irrefutable.

  
  

  The context of 1 Peter 3:19 as well as 2 Peter 2:4 and Jude 6 makes clear that Peter and Jude were emphasizing we need to be obedient to God and that the adverse judgment on the incorrigibly wicked is deserved.

  
  

  Soon Jesus will execute judgment on those in the religious institutions who follow the lead of the wicked angels by misusing their authority in order to abuse the sheep in their care and get worship for themselves instead of God. Jude said it...

  "Too bad for them, for they have followed the path of Cain and have rushed into the erroneous course of Baʹlaam for reward, and they have perished in the rebellious talk of Korʹah! These are the rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice and having been uprooted; wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever."
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  raymond frantz

  No EasyPrompt, the early Christians didn't think it to be figurative they believed it to be LITERAL.I'd rather believe their interpretation rather some theory concorted 20 centuries later that tries to make everything figurative, THERE IS LIFE UNDER THE EARTH.Jesus taught it,The apostles taught it, The Jews and so many other cultures before believe it to be the case
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  EasyPrompt

  I haven't personally had a conversation with all the first century Christians, so it would be presumptuous for me to assume to know what they all believed.

  
  

  I'm sure some of them misunderstood the Bible, just like some Christians do today.

  
  

  That many Jews misunderstood the scriptures is clear from what Jesus taught. He quite openly contradicted the teachings of the Jewish religious leaders. Throughout the entire history of the Jewish nation there were false teachings and false practices corrupting pure worship. To adhere to a teaching just because "the Jews used to believe it" isn't a wise course of action.

  
  

  Jehovah regulated slavery and Jehovah regulated polygamy, but that doesn't mean Jehovah approved of either of those things. Jehovah knew the people were pig-headed and hard-hearted, and He made provisions for the culture of the day. Just because the ancient Jews had slaves or multiple wives, would you do that today? Would Jesus approve? No, he wouldn't.

  
  

  There is life under the ground today, and it's called bacteria, moles, worms, etc. The Greek mythological teaching of Sheol and Tartarus is different than the situation the Bible describes regarding Sheol and Tartarus. The faithful apostles said not to pay attention to stories like old women tell because those stories were silly and were already going around in the first century and prior to that. You can believe them if you want, but I'm not really into believing the mythology/fable thing. (I'm not into sci-fi either, like all that "evolution theory" make-believe where they use fancy words and high-sounding language to pretend stuff happened when there weren't any witnesses.🙂 Evolution myths are perpetuated in the same way as the 1914/FDS doctrines😜.)
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  raymond frantz

  EasyPrompt, you need to re-educate yourself on how to read and analyse text especially when it comes to the Bible.For example the word Tartarus

  1. Appears only in Greek literature and has a specific meaning

  2. The Greeks didn't think it to be mythological, they actually believed in a subterranean abode called Tartarus where the fallen angels or Titans where imprisoned

  3. Peter and Jude borrowed the word and the consept to describe the same place.

  4.Just because you don't believe it , it doesn't make it figurative

  5.Nothing in the context or surrounding verses justifies figurative interpretation

  6. Watchtower does the same thing, if they don't understand something they make it figurative

  May I ask which part of the globe are you from? No need to give specifics
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  Rattigan350

  Seabreeze. Minority text? Majority text?

  I think the main thing is that if it does not make sense, then it does not make sense... for a reason. Because it is not true.

  Same with "Name of the Father, son and holy spirit"

  People call the Bible, infallible word of God. But it isn't.
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  EasyPrompt

  EasyPrompt, you need to re-educate yourself on how to read and analyse text especially when it comes to the Bible."

  @RaymondFrantz, - That is kind of you to be concerned about my education.🤓

  "For example the word Tartarus

  1. Appears only in Greek literature and has a specific meaning"
  

  
  

  While the apostle Peter wrote in the Greek language, I would hardly call the Bible "Greek literature." Peter was definitely a Hebrew.

  
  

  "2. The Greeks didn't think it to be mythological, they actually believed in a subterranean abode called Tartarus where the fallen angels or Titans where imprisoned"
  

  
  

  As a Hebrew educated in the Jewish religion, Peter did not believe in the Greek mythological version of "Tartarus" just like he didn't believe in the Greek mythological version of "Sheol." When Jesus was resurrected from Sheol, did Peter ask him if he had enough to pay Charon for the ride across the river Styx? Or if he brought a snack of perhaps a pomegranate seed for Persephone? No. Peter wouldn't ask those questions because Peter knew when Jesus was dead, he was asleep, not in some "underworld" mythological place.

  
  

  "3. Peter and Jude borrowed the word and the consept to describe the same place."

  
  

  RaymondFrantz, your conclusion doesn't match the evidence in the Bible.

  
  

  "4.Just because you don't believe it , it doesn't make it figurative"

  
  

  Just because you don't believe it, doesn't make it literal.

  
  

  "5.Nothing in the context or surrounding verses justifies figurative interpretation"

  
  

  Except for the entire rest of the Bible: God said Adam and Eve would die if they ate the fruit. Satan said they wouldn't die. Adam and Eve ate the fruit and died. God sent Jesus so people wouldn't have to all die. If Tartarus and Sheol were some places where dead people were really alive then the ransom wouldn't have been needed to buy them back from death because they weren't really dead anyways. Dead means dead, not alive somewhere else.

  
  

  "6. Watchtower does the same thing, if they don't understand something they make it figurative"

  
  

  I don't agree with everything the Watchtower does, but that doesn't mean your specific censure about them in this "Tartarus" business is accurate. I don't agree with your statement that "if they don't understand something they make it figurative". They do the reverse with some things they don't understand and make it literal, like their false teaching on the "new scrolls" doctrine. In context, those verses in Revelation 20:12-15 are just talking about documentation, not some kind of new Bible. You seem to like to take things literally. Do you view all of Jesus' illustrations as literal too? Do you think the Lazarus and the rich man illustration is about a literal place?

  
  

  "May I ask which part of the globe are you from? No need to give specifics"
  

  Yes, you may ask. I am from the surface part of the globe, although sometimes I've been places that seem like hell.😬

  (I mean that figuratively, RaymondFrantz😁)
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  raymond frantz

  EasyPrompt, so in your understanding when Greeks and Jews used the name Tartarus to describe a literal physical abode for imprisoning fallen angels they were wrong because YOU 20 centuries later believe otherwise, is that right?