by Ade 89 Replies latest watchtower bible
Yeah, the WT gets a lot backwards.
Jesus already showed that he can materialize a body. He said he'd eat and drink in the Kingdom. You don't eat and drink in heaven. Jesus will walk around on the earth. His abode will be heaven, but just because you live somewhere doesn't mean you can't visit somewhere else.
Jesus already showed that he can materialize a body.
@EasyPrompt
One of the things that makes it so hard to integrate into Christianity after being a JW is undoing the dozens of redefinitions that were installed in our heads by the indoctrination processes of the WT.
I was a 4th generation JW, now an active church member and serve on the board of directors of a K-12 Christian Academy.
I have found a good old fashioned dictionary from the 1800's to be invaluable in deconstructing WT indoctrination.
This may come as a shock to you (it did for me) ; but there is no such thing in the bible as:
1. Being Resurrected to Spirit Life
2. Jesus materializing a body
The basic meaning of "resurrection" is to rise again. When a person dies, his body falls, lies down, & appears to be sleeping. A resurrection occurs when his body does just the opposite: stands up fully animated and awake.
RESURREC'TION, noun s as z. [Latin resurrectus, resurgo; re and surgo, to rise.]
A rising again; - Webster 1828 Dictionary
Acts 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
True, Jesus' body was glorified in that is was equipped with power to rise to heaven, to appear in rooms with opening a door, and so forth. But, it was still his body that he died in that was raised. Otherwise, a resurrection did not occur. And if a resurrection did not occur, then the Apostle Paul makes clear that there are bigger doctrinal problems:
if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ... if Christ be not raised, ...ye are yet in your sins. - 1 Cor. 15
Foundational, bedrock Christian doctrine from the earliest eye witness testimony is that Jesus rose from the dead (was resurrrected) in his OWN BODY.
Hi, Sea Breeze...
That's cool that you serve at a Christian Academy! I think it's fun to help kids learn about God. Growing up pretty much atheist, I found education disjointed and random at times. Incorporating our Creator into the subject matter ties everything together and explains why we find patterns in creation, why scientists can predict elements on the periodic table, etc... I am thankful that there are people like you willing to take a stand for including information about God in education in a world that so often tends to discard the wisdom of the Bible.
Thank you for sharing your ideas with me about Jesus.
Although I do agree with you sometimes on other threads 🙂, I don't agree with you in this case, and I will explain why...
(1) That spirit persons can materialize a body is evidenced many times in the Bible, by both wicked and good angels, for instance.
(2) Paul said of those humans who will be going to heaven "we shall all be changed" and that a physical human body cannot go to heaven.
(3) When Jesus was resurrected, at first his friends did not recognize him, because he materialized a body that looked different.
Some scientists say that certain cells in the body are replaced every seven years. I don't know how accurate that estimate is, but surely since humans are designed to live forever, at some point there will be different cells in place than the originals, and yet the same person with the same memories and the same personality is there. It is possible to have the same person in a physically different body.
When Jesus healed the man who was born blind, that man had never had healthy eyes. The cells Jesus miraculously created weren't "the same" cells the man had before. They were new.
When Jesus healed the man with the withered hand, the cells Jesus created weren't "the same" cells the man had in a formerly healthy hand. That man's hand had been withered for a long time. It wasn't like the muscles had just withered a couple days prior.
When Jehovah healed the wombs of different women, like Rachel and Sarah and Hannah, it wasn't like he was giving them back something they lost. They had never been able to conceive. Jehovah gave them something new.
And the biggest evidence, Jesus had a life in heaven before he came to earth. Jesus had a spirit body in heaven before he was a man. The Bible says that spirit creatures are higher than humans as far as a life form goes. If it is possible for God to put such a higher life form into a human body once, than certainly it is possible for God to do it again with a different body.
The fact that God gave Jesus a different body does not negate the ransom. For the ransom to work, that other body had to be given up forever. Instead of having the option to father his own kids in that body, Jesus gave it up to inherit all Adam's kids through adoption. Jesus was willing to make the trade.
But giving up that body doesn't mean Jesus can't hang out on earth. To the contrary, not only Jesus but also Jehovah will hang out here.
"Therefore, in response Jesus said to them: “Most truly I say to you, the Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son does also in like manner. For the Father has affection for the Son and shows him all the things he himself does, and he will show him works greater than these, so that you may marvel." (John 5:19,20)
"For I well know that my redeemer is alive;
He will come later and rise up over the earth.
After my skin has thus been destroyed,
While yet in my flesh, I will see God,
Whom I will see for myself,
Whom my own eyes will see, not someone else’s."
(Job 19:25-27)
Job prophesied about Jesus, the Redeemer, who was alive in heaven and who was coming.
Job also prophesied about Jehovah God coming to the earth again, just like in Eden, when Jehovah walked every day with His kids in the garden in the breezy part of the day.
"Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."
Jesus said it. Jehovah will be there too.
"And the name of the city from that day on will be Jehovah Is There."
So were you a JW for a while? If so, how long?
A couple of decades.
Do you believe in a literal interpretation of the bible unless obvious literary devices are used?
I believe whatever the context and the overall theme of the Bible and holy spirit makes clear.
Scripture says that we are soul, body and spirit, explicitly in two places. The martyred souls under the altar in Rev. 6: 9-11 are just that.... souls. They have not been resurrected to spirit life. They are conscious dead souls, who feel, remember, speak and think just like those who are alive. They are in heaven, awaiting their resurrection.
Below is a discussion on what happens to Christians who are resurrected with their soul, body and soul in tact....... in the future. It is from GotQuestions.org.
The term spiritual body seems to be an oxymoron. A basic point to be made, based on the term, is that the resurrection body cannot be wholly spiritual; otherwise, it could not be a “body.” It is a human body, but there is something different about it, as Paul explains in context.
Taking in the whole of 1 Corinthians 15, we have the following descriptions of the body we have now versus the future resurrected body:
All the way through the text, the word body is used.
Earlier in the chapter, Paul lays the foundation for his discussion of the spiritual body: “Not all flesh is the same: People have one kind of flesh, animals have another, birds another and fish another” (1 Corinthians 15:39).
Note the illustration of differing kinds of flesh:
So, here’s Paul’s point: after the resurrection, we will have a body perfectly suited for life in heaven...[and/or earth]. The “spiritual body” will be made of flesh (like Jesus’ body is), but a different kind of flesh than what we have now.
The passage continues: “There are also heavenly bodies and there are earthly bodies; but the splendor of the heavenly bodies is one kind, and the splendor of the earthly bodies is another. The sun has one kind of splendor, the moon another and the stars another; and star differs from star in splendor” (1 Corinthians 15:40–41). So, we can also say that the resurrection body—the spiritual body—will have a different “splendor” than our earthly, natural body.
The spiritual body is suited to eternal life. It is not subject to decay or death; it will not be inconvenienced by any of the physical functions necessary for life here and now. The spiritual body will be a real body, but in a different mode of being. It will be an upgrade: at the resurrection, our bodies will go from Version 1.0 to Version 2.0. Better yet, to extend Paul’s illustration in 1 Corinthians 15:39, our bodies now are the “seed”; our bodies then will be the blossom. Just as a poppy is more glorious than the seed from which it came, the spiritual body will be more glorious than the physical body that died.
The context of Revelation 6:9-11 shows that the illustration is figurative. The four horsemen are figurative. Death and the Grave are figurative. The altar and souls scene is figurative. It's not literal.
First Corinthians 15 in context is talking about Christ's resurrection initially. Then Paul is explaining how the heavenly resurrection works.
Why did Paul focus on Christ's resurrection and not mention all the earlier resurrections recorded in the scriptures? Because Christ's resurrection was different. None of the other resurrections, either the ones by Elijah or Elisha or even by Jesus himself during his ministry on earth, were of a "new creation". Those other resurrections were of people back to life again in a human body. When Christ was resurrected, he was raised up by God in a spirit body. He materialized a human form in order to interact with his disciples, but he was not human anymore.
Paul was explaining this to the Christians in Corinth because they had the same eventuality to be a new creation. People prior to Jesus' resurrection did not have that same eventuality. The Bible shows humans are meant to live on the earth. There is no need to live in heaven, because Jehovah and Jesus are going to come here anyway. (Jesus' abode is heaven but he can come here whenever he wants, so can Jehovah.) The whole provision of 144,000 priests and kings to help restore things is a temporary arrangement just like the ancient priesthood was temporary. The "new creation" and "marriage of the Lamb" part will last, it is a way Jehovah can show the Devil and the demons and the faithful angels and humans that humans are not unloved or some lowly junk to throw away. (The Devil made all kinds of accusations in heaven. By taking some of the lowliest of the lowly humans and making them higher than angels, Jehovah shows that He is not partial, and that the youngest in His family are just as loved as the oldest.)
This guarantee and great love of God for all His faithful kids is to be expressed to all humans who want to embrace it, the sacred secret that God will be here on earth with all His kids. It's not necessary to be one of the 144,000 new creation in order to hang out with Jehovah and Jesus.
When Paul was talking about the "third heaven" that's what he meant. Peter helps explain it when he said that in Noah's day "the heavens were destroyed" (the first heavens) meaning the governments of that time. Peter said that soon again "the heavens will be destroyed by fire" (the second heavens) figuratively, when the governments are replaced by God's Kingdom government (which is the third heaven). (2 Peter 3:5-7) Sometimes the word "heaven" can be used figuratively to describe government. It's the Kingdom government that will help make the earth a paradise. Paul said he had a vision where he was "...caught away to the third heaven...caught away into paradise and heard words that cannot be spoken and that are not lawful for a man to say." (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) He was talking about the sacred secret. It wasn't the time to talk about it then, but now it is.
The sacred secret is that everybody who wants to can hang out with God. You don't have to have "the heavenly hope". He's coming here.
That's why it will be Paradise. Because God will be here.
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the former heaven and the former earth had passed away, and the sea is no more. I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.” And the One seated on the throne said: “Look! I am making all things new.” Also he says: “Write, for these words are faithful and true.”"
Jesus is the faithful witness. He said "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."
EP,
In this most famous prophecy, Jesus announced that while dead, he would resurrect his own body from the dead.
So the Jews answered and said to Him, “What sign do You show to us, since You do these things?”
Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”
Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. - John 2
Did Jesus lie?
Saying scriptures are "symbolic" is the same as ripping out parts of the bible that don't agree with certain viewpoints. It is an easy way to try and get the scriptures to agree while holding on to cherished assumptions.
It takes effort to dig out the truth that allows the scriptures to speak for themselves in harmony. "Spiritualizing" verses is similar to "hand waving" in argumentation. It has pagued Christianity since the first century gnostics became interested in Christianity.
One of the things that astonished me in my journey after getting saved was just how many things in the bible were literal and not symbolic, figurative, or metaphorical.
Anyway, I don't expect you to give up all your symbolic interpretation of scripture in just one discussion. Just know that this is a major topic of discussion in the bible as Paul shows in Corinthians and each generation of Christians therefter has had to deal with - literal vs. symbolic interpretation, especially in new believers.
Here is a fuller discussion on why the bodily resurrection of Jesus is so important.
