by FreedomFrog 116 Replies latest jw friends
AlanF- Watchtower citations please? That's just what I need. When you have time. Thanks.
BTW - Well said. Reminded me of another Alan; Shore from Boston Legal. Hope you take that as a compliment, I love that guy. Don't know if anything will get through to The Scotsman but this thread is helping me tremendously. This forum is like an oasis of intellgent thought.
I deeply admire those that can engage these logic-despising apologists.
I'd buy you all a beer.
NVR:
I was one such apologist once myself. Used to go up against AlanF quite a bit. He might even have called me a thorn in his side for a while.
It is sometimes worth the effort.
I'll take you up on that beer anyways.
Had two good ones today with some Oysters in Van City. I'll post on the beer thread!
Frank75
Scotsman, since you are a WT apologist, could you do me a favor ?
If you read my post, about the "WT Hemoglobin NewLight ™" , that came too late to save my Mom's life (she was just following orders)...you know I have a 'bone to pick' with your Governing Body. Would you apologize to me -- for them ?
Apparently...they are so very busy downloading "spiritual food at the proper time," from The Big Guy...that they must have forgotten to send my family, WT Form "54321-0- Beeeeep ™", "Thank You Sincerely for your Sacrifice of ___(fill in name of faithful victim ____ you can rest assured that Jah and the FDS are smiling and proud of your/their belief in us."
I also never got WT Form "Sorry about that OldeLight ™ " that may have caused: the death/suicide/disease/shunning/______/______/_______/_______( circle one or more. fill in blank(s) if needed attach additional sheets) of your loved one(s).
Query: How can the GB all be 'anointed spiritual conduit' downloadees of God...then, still have to VOTE and get a two-thirds majority to make decisions ? Doesn't it bother you, that the votes are not always, always...ALWAYS...unanimous ? If 2/3 of these Fellow Downloadee Society members don't get the SAME message from the SAME god, doesn't that tell you something ???
People have died and are dying over the 'spiritual disagreements' of a handful of delusional elder men in Brooklyn... who think they hear voices...that other 'normal' people cannot. Then, they actually have to take a democratic VOTE...to determine what "voices" the majority heard !
That is laughable. Wait...no it's not.
Rabbit
Can I nab your words nvr? Thank you.
I deeply admire those that can engage these logic-despising apologists.
I've read this entire thread and am impressed w/all of your documented replies to Scotsman and the kind manner in which you posted.
Juni ~~~
HOPEFULLY MORE WILL OPEN THEIR MINDS ~~
Bttt... hoping Scotsman has finished his research...have you ?
AWAKE&WATCHING:
Here are the citations giving the impression that Bodies of Elders are literally inspired when making judicial decisions:
From The Watchtower, 2/1/1981, p. 31:
Questions from Readers
O Are Jesus’ words at Matthew 18:18-20 to be understood to mean that heaven is bound by decisions made by men on earth?
These verses read: "Truly I say to you men, Whatever things you may bind on earth will be things bound in heaven, and whatever things you may loose on earth will be things loosed in heaven. Again I truly say to you, If two of you on earth agree concerning anything of importance that they should request, it will take place for them due to my Father in heaven. For where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst."
As the New World Translation (here quoted) and some other translations show, the things that are ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ on earth are things that have already been ‘bound’ or ‘loosed’ in heaven. The Greek words here used literally mean "having been bound" or "having been loosed," which are in the perfect tense, passive voice. In other words, the tense suggests that the action had already been decided upon in heaven and is merely reflected in what is subsequently decided upon on earth by those who wish to reflect "wisdom from above." (Jas. 3:17, 18) "Bound" would refer to being found guilty for punishment; "loosed" would refer to being found innocent.
These words of Jesus follow his discussion of the procedure that should be followed if a servant of God has a major "fault" to take up with his brother. (Verses 15-17) This could lead to the charge being taken up by the "congregation" in that the matter would come before the responsible brothers in the congregation for review and judgment. If the charge was proved true and sufficiently gross, with the individual showing no repentance, the result would be that this one would be considered as "a man of the nations and as a tax collector." He would be disfellowshiped. All of this, of course, would require deliberations. And these deliberations are what Jesus had reference to in verses 18 to 20.
Since holy spirit would come to Jesus’ disciples through Jesus from and after Pentecost 33 C.E., it could be said that "where there are two or three gathered together in my [Jesus’] name, there I am in their midst." All gathered to review the matter would need to be alert to the leadings of Jehovah’s spirit. Particularly would they need to weigh matters carefully in the light of his Word, including the instructions and teachings of Jesus, to see what Jehovah’s mind would be on the alleged conduct and what should be done if the evidence proves the charge as being true and the individual does not repent. Of course, those weighing matters impartially might find the accused innocent, or there may be insufficient evidence.
In the first century, Christians had miraculous operations of Jehovah’s holy spirit in some matters of judgment, such as in the judgment of Ananias and Sapphira. (Acts 5:1-11; 1 Cor. 12:4-11) After miraculous gifts of the spirit ceased with the death of the apostles, Christians have not expected direct miraculous indications from heaven as to how a matter should be decided. (1 Cor. 13:8-13) Nevertheless, we still have what Jehovah’s Word says about proper conduct and how matters should be decided. We can, in effect, determine what has already been decided on a matter in the heavens. Admittedly, due to human imperfections, mistakes in judgment are made at times, but this only emphasizes even more the need to adhere closely to the instructions in Jehovah’s Word in handling matters so as to be assured that what is decided is what has already been decided in heaven.
From The Watchtower, 7/1/1992 pp. 15-16
Elders acting in a judicial capacity should remember that the real Judges of each case are Jehovah and Christ Jesus. Recall what the judges in Israel were told: "It is not for man that you judge but it is for Jehovah; and he is with you in the matter of judgment. And now let the dread of Jehovah come to be upon you. . . . This is how you should do that you may not incur guilt." (2 Chronicles 19:6-10) With reverential fear, the elders judging a case should do their utmost to be sure that Jehovah is really ‘with them in the matter of judgment.’ Their decision should accurately reflect the way Jehovah and Christ consider the matter. What they symbolically ‘bind’ (find guilty) or ‘loose’ (find innocent) on earth should be what has already been bound or loosed in heaven--as revealed by what is written in the inspired Word of God. If they pray to Jehovah in Jesus’ name, Jesus will be "in their midst" to help them. (Matthew 18:18-20, footnote; The Watchtower, February 15, 1988, page 9) The atmosphere at a judicial hearing should show that Christ is truly in their midst.
From The Watchtower, 3/15/1991 p. 5
"Whatever You Bind on Earth"
Later, what Jesus had told Peter was repeated to other disciples. "I tell you solemnly," said Jesus, "whatever you bind on earth shall be considered bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth shall be considered loosed in heaven." (Matthew 18:18, JB) What authority did Christ here delegate to the disciples? The context shows that he was talking about settling problems between individual believers and keeping the congregation clean of unrepentant evildoers.--Matthew 18:15-17.
In matters involving serious violations of God’s law, responsible men in the congregation would have to judge matters and decide whether a wrongdoer should be "bound" (viewed as guilty) or "loosed" (acquitted). Did this mean that heaven would follow the decisions of humans? No. As Bible scholar Robert Young indicates, any decision made by the disciples would follow heaven’s decision, not precede it. He says that verse 18 should literally read: What you bind on earth "shall be that which has been bound (already)" in heaven.
Really, it is unreasonable to think that any imperfect human could make decisions that would be binding upon those in the heavenly courts. It is much more reasonable to say that Christ’s appointed representatives would follow his directions so as to keep his congregation clean. They would do this by making a decision based on principles already laid down in heaven. Jesus himself would guide them in doing this.--Matthew 18:20.
From The Watchtower, 2/15/1988 p. 9
In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah’s Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment ‘will already have been bound in heaven.’ And when they "loose on earth," that is, find one innocent, it will already have been "loosed in heaven." In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:6-20; Mark 9:38-50; Luke 9:49, 50.
From the book The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived, Chapter 63
In making such a decision, overseers need to adhere closely to instructions in Jehovah’s Word. Thus, when they find an individual guilty and worthy of punishment, the judgment ‘will already have been bound in heaven.’ And when they "loose on earth," that is, find one innocent, it will already have been "loosed in heaven." In such judicial deliberations, Jesus says, "where there are two or three gathered together in my name, there I am in their midst." Matthew 18:6-20; Mark 9:38-50; Luke 9:49, 50.
Here is a citation giving the impression that elders are literally appointed by holy spirit:
From The Watchtower, 3/15/2002 p. 14 "Christ Leads His Congregation"
As in the first century, a small group of qualified men from among the anointed overseers now serve as the Governing Body, representing the composite faithful and discreet slave. Our Leader uses this Governing Body to appoint qualified men--whether spirit-anointed or not--as elders in the local congregations. In this regard, the holy spirit, which Jehovah has given Jesus authority to employ, plays a pivotal role. (Acts 2:32, 33) First of all, these overseers must meet the requirements set out in God’s Word, which was inspired by holy spirit. (1 Timothy 3:1-7; Titus 1:5-9; 2 Peter 1:20, 21) The recommendations and appointments are made after prayer and under the guidance of the holy spirit. Additionally, the individuals appointed give evidence of producing the fruitage of that spirit. (Galatians 5:22, 23) Paul’s counsel, then, applies with equal force to all elders, whether anointed or not: "Pay attention to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the holy spirit has appointed you overseers." (Acts 20:28) These appointed men receive direction from the Governing Body and willingly shepherd the congregation. In this way, Christ is with us now and is actively leading the congregation.
You'll note that the above citations don't literally state that elders make decisions or are appointed by holy spirit, but give such a strong impression of this claim that virtually all JWs understand the Society to mean what it appears to be saying. But as I mentioned, when challenged, Watchtower officials will back off and admit that the impression is a lie.
AlanF
