The Scotsman...this thread is started for you if you wish to comment....

by FreedomFrog 116 Replies latest jw friends

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  FreedomFrog

  The Scotsman said:

  << Tee Hee - Dubs will believe ANYTHING, lol.>>

  Not at all, though I certainly would not believe anything on this site.

  That's good because you shouldn't believe everything you hear in this world. That's where critical thinking comes into play. That includes things in ALL religious organizations.

  It strengthens my faith to see how lost people become when they depart the protection of the organisation.

  As Pater said "Where else would we go to"?

  Jehovah Witness.com?????? Ha Ha Ha.

  This is where you lost the real meaning of that scripture. Jesus didn't say "you must be Jehovah's Witnesses to gain everlasting life." He didn't say that about any religious organization.

  And "of course" Jesus had the sayings of everlasting life - the earthly organisation did not exist yet, but the existance of an organisation in the future was implied on a number of occasions, e.g. - Faithful and Discreet Slave. (A channel to dispense spiritual food in an orderly fashion.)

  When you said "implied" you're correct on this...it was only "implied"...so who's to say that the current men that call themselves "Faithful and Discreet Slave" IS the real thing? John Smith of the Morman religion went into the woods and found a "message" from God saying HE was the choosen one. Did that make it a fact that he was? Anyone can go and say THEY are the choosen one because God told them they were. What about Waco Texas,

  "Holed up in a Texas fortress, David Koresh and his followers fervently believe he is Christ -- and till death do them part" (Timeline.come) http://www.time.com/time/daily/newsfiles/waco/031593.html

  So who REALLY choose the men calling themselves FDS? They did. You're just taking faith in that they SAY they are "annointed"...just like the people following David Koresh. They believed it with their WHOLE heart just as you believe the Watchtower with your whole heart.

  And I apologize for going off topic - anytime I have tried to start a thread it does not work

  I started one for you so others and you can continue this conversation if desired.
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  AgentSmith

  The faithfull and discreet slave is a parable. If you want to take that literaly, then there should be a 10 virgin class as well, as these two parables were told together to make the same point. Which was be prepared for Christ's return. Correct? You cannot keep one part and dismiss the other.

  Then you mentioned the 144000, who happens to be in heaven. Where is the great crowd? In front of the throne. They are in heaven too. Go have a look. read it as it was meant to be understood. If you take the number as literal, then WHO they are must be literal too. Agreed? Then they should be Jews, from the 12 tribes of Isreal, and they must be virgins! You cannot read real and fairy tale into the same scripture. Jehovah is not like that. If he gave the writer inspiration to record his message, He will give it straight. No crooked mind bending maneuvres to understand the meaning,

  Last point and I will stop, promise.

  If Russel, Rutherford, Knorr, etc etc were inspired by God, or the holy spirit, then their writings would be just that. "Inspired writings" Good enough to be included in the Bible, not so? Not only are they out of print, they are not referred to by other Wtactower publications. They are full of writings that would now be considered 'apostate'. Astrology, Occult references, Pyramidology etc ect. If Jesus had to pick a Faithfull and discreet slave in 1914 when he started reign, he would NOT have picked Russel. (Who claimed to be the F&D slave, by the way) Thus their writings are NOT inspired or directed by God as God does not make mistakes. Ever.
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  The Scotsman

  After 8 attempts at trying to reply I am giving up.

  I am trying to paste text into my reply and it bombs!!!!
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  Doubting Bro

  Try pasting into Notepad instead of Word.
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  The Scotsman

  Thanks for starting the thread.

  You make “numerous” points.

  You compare Jehovahs Witnesses to David Koresh and the church of the solar temple? Is this fair??

  The were, and still are, gun totting crazies who clearly had loose morals to put it mildly. You may have your gripes with JWs but we clearly have a good moral standing in comparison to most.

  Regarding the Faithful and Discreet slave, this is a regular topic on this forum. Everything that can be said has been.

  Joseph Smith did make claims, fantastic claims, but were they ever proven?
  The golden tablets he was apparently shown, where are they?

  Members of the Faithful slave have never made fantastical claims to have seen visions or visits by angels etc. By their works is proof enough for me they are the Faithful and Discreet Slave.
  They are not the money grabbing millionaires that some claim here. (Quite a ridiculous claim)

  GB members (in fact, all Bethelites) need to sign a legal document (a declaration of poverty) to prevent abuse of the finances of the Org.
  The Faithful slave would give an increasing understanding to scripture and prophecy in the last days.

  They would point to the bible as the key authority for the promised food at the proper time.

  They would focus clearly on the urgent work of preaching the good news of the kingdom.
  No-one fits this description better.

  Are the Governing Body or any of the anointed perfect? No. It is unrealistic to expect perfection when it is clearly impossible.
  This results in the mistakes being made, even failed prediction in the past. Not since the early 2oth century.
  (And please do not mention 1975 – where I live no-one even noticed 1975, did not expect anything.)
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  Sad emo

  Hmm, I do not get that. And "of course" Jesus had the sayings of everlasting life - the earthly organisation did not exist yet, but the existance of an organisation in the future was implied on a number of occasions, e.g. - Faithful and Discreet Slave. (A channel to dispense spiritual food in an orderly fashion.)

  Thanks for starting the thread FF, I can reply to The Scotsman's reply here now!

  The Scotsman - there is a vast difference between the meaning of the words 'where?' and 'who?' and I'm sure you've had enough basic education to know the difference yourself. By cross-mixing the two, are you saying in your reply that effectively the anointed or the organisation is on a par with Jesus?

  Like I said before, read and think, then read and think - and read and think again!!

  Now, though you may not agree that the remaining 144000 on earth are this same group, the fact is that an organisation would exist. How else would the fulfillment of MATT 24:14 or MATT 28:19,20 be accomplished?

  What Freedom Frog said above. How do you know that yours is the right organisation and all the others are wrong? Some of those in the past who were thought to be anointed have turned out not to be - how can you know for certain that the anointed ones at present truly are? Remember 'Satan disguises himself as an angel of light' - what if ....?

  And I apologize for going off topic - anytime I have tried to start a thread it does not work.

  I sent you a PM suggesting what the problem might be which you hadn't yet read the last time I looked - in case you're not sure, just click at the top left side of the page where it says 'inbox' and then click on the message title. There's nothing else in the PM apart from that - just to reassure you :-)
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  FreedomFrog

  Thanks for starting the thread.

  You're welcome.

  You compare Jehovahs Witnesses to David Koresh and the church of the solar temple? Is this fair??

  David Koresh is an extreme example I admit...but my point is that there are people out there claiming that they are this and that and others will follow if they believe it or have faith in it.

  Joseph Smith did make claims, fantastic claims, but were they ever proven?
  The golden tablets he was apparently shown, where are they?

  Oh, and sorry, I meant to say "Joseph" and typed "John...my bad. My question then is, what has the FDS done to "prove" they are choosen too?

  Members of the Faithful slave have never made fantastical claims to have seen visions or visits by angels etc.

  Maybe not by visions...but they do claim that they have the "Channel" with God...what exactly does that mean? Isn't having a "direct channel" similar to claiming that they get special abilities from God to know how to teach their flock?

  They would point to the bible as the key authority for the promised food at the proper time.

  Yes, but I've also seen them take scriptures out of context to prove their point. There are many scriptures that can be taken several different ways.

  Are the Governing Body or any of the anointed perfect? No. It is unrealistic to expect perfection when it is clearly impossible.
  This results in the mistakes being made, even failed prediction in the past. Not since the early 2oth century.
  (And please do not mention 1975 – where I live no-one even noticed 1975, did not expect anything.)

  Here's my question to that...If they are not perfect...then some things that they are teaching could very well be misunderstood...right? There have been things changed and the FDS would say "we have a new understanding". What if a person (there has been a few) KNEW they weren't quite right with their teachings and voiced it? Those people have been disfellowshipped for not accepting the mistake that was being taught as truth and had been concidered apostates. Years later the FDS changed their thinking and the person disfellowshipped was right after all with what they had felt. Do they get reinstated? No...they weree told to "wait on Jehovah" for the changes.
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  The Scotsman

  <<<<The Scotsman - there is a vast difference between the meaning of the words 'where?' and 'who?' and I'm sure you've had enough basic education to know the difference yourself. By cross-mixing the two, are you saying in your reply that effectively the anointed or the organisation is on a par with Jesus?>>>>

  People can get very picky on specific words "when it suits them".

  No-one is saying the organisation or the anointed are on a par with Jesus. Jesus is king in Heaven, the anointed are the Earthly element of the universal organisation. Jesus has the name above every other name, he is second only to jehovah.
  And it is not about a where or a who, it is about a condition - An approved condition between the individual and Jehovah - in the end it is one on one. The Faithful slave are there as the approved channel between humans and jehovah "at this point" but not in the new order, then it returns to one on one.

  <<<<Like I said before, read and think, then read and think - and read and think again!!>>>>

  I read and think every day, because I do not agree with you does not mean that I do not have the ability to analyze, question and think on a subject. 2 people can read and think and come to different conclusions - agreed?

  <<<<What Freedom Frog said above. How do you know that yours is the right organisation and all the others are wrong? Some of those in the past who were thought to be anointed have turned out not to be - how can you know for certain that the anointed ones at present truly are? Remember 'Satan disguises himself as an angel of light' - what if ....?>>>>

  How do I know this is the "right organisation"? Interesting expression.
  Ultimately there is an absolute truth of a matter, do you agree with that?
  I have considered other belief systems and very quickly they seem uncomfortable. Involvement with war, questionable practices, babylonish teachings.

  Jehovahs Witnesses stand out in this world as very different. Jesus said that his tue followers would be no part of the world - they would be different. They would also have enemies!!!

  On your other point - Someone who claimed to be of the anointed can become unfaithful or leave the organisation whenever they feel like it. Anointed or Great Crowd - they must "remain" in that approved condition. So to suggest that all anointed are somehow all wrong because a few have fell by the way side is a weak argument.
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  ButtLight

  Maybe not by visions...but they do claim that they have the "Channel" with God...what exactly does that mean? Isn't having a "direct channel" similar to claiming that they get special abilities from God to know how to teach their flock?

  And if thats the case.......why the need for NEW LIGHT? Wouldnt every bit of info they print be correct from the start? Why would Jehovah give them wrong direction, and correct it later down the road?
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  The Scotsman

  Why the need for New Light???

  Jehovah has always "gradually" revealed his purpose to mankind.
  John was given the Revelation - but did he understand it all? No. Why?
  He did not need to know.

  Everything is decent and by arrangement - accuracy of understanding progresses - with the passing of time.