The Scotsman...this thread is started for you if you wish to comment....

by FreedomFrog 116 Replies latest jw friends

  • FreedomFrog
    FreedomFrog

    Scotsman, I didn't leave because of a bad experience...I left because after studying and researching I came to realize that Jehovah's Witnesses are just another organization for religious people.

    I remember having my questions in the current publications and would go to the elders with my confusion...of course they got a pioneer to start studies with me and I'd tell her my questions. After 3 studies she quit and I think it was because she couldn't answer my questions. I then started studying myself to find my answers to my questions. That is when I started doing more research on the history of the Witnesses. I also studied a few other religious backgrounds. They ended up sounding the same way as to how they started. Most of them started by a single person that felt they had God's backing.

  • ninja
    ninja

    hey scotsman....another page for you to look at.... http://www.ajwrb.org/victims/index.shtml scroll down to arvid moody....victim number 70....he died refusing a kidney transplant....in 1978... just a couple of years before Jehovah changed his mind about transplants being acceptable again and not cannibalistic as he had said in 1967....the watchtower has blood on its hands......ninja

  • undercover
    undercover

    I'll make a few comments but I know you're outnumbered 100 to 1, so I'll understand if you prefer to comment to other statements.

    I have said this before on this forum - the vast majority of your qoutes are from 60, 70 years ago and even older than that on a few cases. Those who question the organisation tend to fall into 2 categories - had a bad experience or get hung up on 80 year old articles.

    The Bible is much, much older than any WT quotes. Has anything in the Bible needed to be revised or changed? The argument that the WT publications are not inspired is suspect because the F&DS claims to be spirit directed. If they are spirit directed then anything they write while be directed would also be spirit directed, or in other words inspired. They can't claim one with the other. So if they were spirit directed 60 years ago and wrote something then and called it "truth" and today claim to be spirit directed and changed this "truth" to something else today, which is "truth"? Both can't be truth. One is "false".

    I personally have not had a really bad experience with the JWs...other than being lied to by the leadership. And I got "hung up" on the "generation change of 1995 shortly after it happened. I also got hung up on the WT involvement with the NGO/DPI of the UN during this decade. Clearly a direct violation of their principles. And they expect their followers to hold to these high standards at the threat of being DFd while they can clearly act above those same principles and standards.

    Also a few of the articles qouted are not changes of any significance. (The Watchtower re: Generation will not pass away.)

    The core point is the same, it is the understanding of the word generation which has changed. For JWs this was not anything of significance.

    How is it not significant that up till the generation change that "millions now living will never die" to "we bring a spirit of wisdom" to the subject and drop that teaching.

    The WTS made definitive statements that the end would come in our lifetime...and now have reneged on that statement.

    To anyone paying attention, this is a significant change in doctrine. It is of life changing significance, for all those who were hoping to see the new system in their life time now no longer have that guarantee. That "truth" changed, so that "truth" was false. We were lied to. Whether purposely lied to or if it was a genuine mistake doesn't matter. They were wrong. If they were what they professed to be, God's Earthly Organization, with his spirit directing them, this mistake would not have been made.

    Despite all of this - where else can we go to have a verse by verse explanation of Revelation - Daniel, Ezekiel etc. Who else could truly claim to be preaching worldwide? What about the high moral standard displayed by Jehovahs people. No involvement in war or politics.

    "Where else can we go" is a paraphrased quote from Peter who actually asked Jesus "to who should he go", not where. A minor point, sure, but significant in that JWs feel that we must be directed through the Organization instead of Jesus Christ.

    JWs aren't the only missionaries in the world. They may have a higher concentration of their everyday membership who goes door-to-door, but that work is obviously not very successful. How many millions or billions of hours are spent each year and the growth of the membership is almost stagnant in many developed countries? If a publicly traded company had such dismal reports based on the hours spent, they'd be finding new ways to market their product.

    JWs are a typical fundamentalist sect in that they promote high moral standards. No big revelation there. Many fundie sects do the same. But in a world of 6 billion people, is your claim that only 6 million JWs are moral and everyone else immoral?

    JWs aren't the only ones to avoid war and politics. Hell, the Church of Satan is apolitical and refuses to get involved in political stances and positions. Does this make them worthy of consideration as a way to worship? Granted, many churches and religion curry favor with the political entities of the world and the JWs do not, something that can be generally applauded.

    I hope you take the time to really research the history and doctrines of the WTS. I think if you are completely honest with yourself and can take the WT blinders off for a while, you'll see where many of us are coming from.

    In the end, however, if you choose to worship with the JWs inspite of knowing that what we are saying is based on fact and not hysteria, then I can only wish you well in your endeavor. I just hope that you give us the same consideration and not condemn us for choosing to not worship with you.

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Scotsman..1975 was`nt a big deal in your area?.....At the stroke of midnight January 1st 1976,it wasn`t a big deal anywhere..Before that,it was a Very Big Deal to JW`s around the world..Dispite preaching about it for decades and peddling liturature on the subject,JW`s dont remember doing it.....Does that make JW`s Brain Washed,Brain Dead or just Liers?...OUTLAW

  • fullofdoubtnow
    fullofdoubtnow
    Scotsman..1975 was`nt a big deal in your area?.....At the stroke of midnight January 1st 1976,it wasn`t a big deal anywhere..Before that,it was a Very Big Deal to JW`s around the world..Dispite preaching about it for decades and peddling liturature on the subject,JW`s dont remember doing it.....Does that make JW`s Brain Washed,Brain Dead or just Liers?...OUTLAW

    All are one, and some are all three OUTLAW.

  • TD
    TD

    Scotsman,

    I have said this before on this forum - the vast majority of your qoutes are from 60, 70 years ago and even older than that on a few cases. Those who question the organisation tend to fall into 2 categories - had a bad experience or get hung up on 80 year old articles.

    I don't know whether you are a young JW or if you are "New in the Truth", but this comment is typical of both groups. (I mean no disrespect by this. Everyone has to start somewhere.)

    Jehovah's Witnesses believe that they as an organization either participated in or were actually the target of numerous prophecies and prophetic parallels that were realized early in the 20th century. (I can give you a long list if you want.)

    What was or was not said by the JW organization during this period cannot be dismissed as irrelevant or unimportant. There is a huge doctrinal cost tied to their words and actions.

    Also a few of the articles qouted are not changes of any significance. (The Watchtower re: Generation will not pass away.)

    This is a perfect example of what I mentioned above. Only "New" or young JW would ever say such a thing.

    When the "Great Crowd" was identified in 1935, it was thought that the "Great Tribulation" had already started, but had been "Cut Short" (i.e. WWI had come and gone) Those "Jonadabs" that stood up at the summer convention in DC were proclaimed to be the "Great Multitude" of Revelation because it was thought that they had already "Come out" of the "Great Tribulation."

    When the "Great Tribulation" was moved forward to a event entirely in the future in the early 70's it became necessary to explain exactly what had made the identification of the "Great Multitude" possible in 1935. The proximity of the end (i.e. Within one generation) was that explanation.

    In other words, the 1935 announcement was validated on the basis that those "Jonadabs" by and large would live to see the outbreak of the "Great Tribulation" and would thus have the prospect of surviving it. So even if they were not technically members of the "Great Crowd" at the time, they were at least, "Prospective Members" of the "Great Crowd."

    The "Generation" doctrine was thus joined to the "Great Crowd" doctrine like a Siamese Twin.

    However, within the framework of JW theology, it's impossible to even be a "Prospective" member of the "Great Crowd" if the "Great Tribulation" lies outside the boundaries of a person's lifespan. Revelation clearly states that these,"...are the ones who come out of the Great Tribulation."

    It should be obvious therefore that the "Generation" doctrine cannot casually be modified. Doing so calls into question the validity of the 1935 announcement, something that your organization to this very day, still refers to as a, "Bright flash of light." It calls into question the validity of dozens of prophetic parallels that your organization has applied to itself.

    For example, would you like to take a crack at explaining who the "Man with the writer's inkhorn" (Ezekiel 9) is and what he has been doing the last 72 years in light of the generation change of 1995?

  • AlphaOmega
    AlphaOmega
    AlphaOmega said:

    It sounds harsh, but the facts speak for themselves. What Ninja's excellent clippings don't show is how many people died for rejecting organ transplants between the time that the Society outlawed transplantation and the time that they lifted the ban.

    How is this in keeping with "I desire mercy, not sacrifice" ?

    Ninja Said: arvid moody....victim number 70....he died refusing a kidney transplant....in 1978... just a couple of years before Jehovah changed his mind about transplants being acceptable again and not cannibalistic as he had said in 1967....the watchtower has blood on its hands......ninja

    Thanks Ninja ! I didn't know that that was on the website.

    Not sure if you are a beer drinker, a wine drinker or a dry martini man, so here are all threealt

    AO

  • OUTLAW
    OUTLAW

    Fullofdoubtnow/(((Linda)))..I would have to agree...OUTLAW

  • edmond dantes
    edmond dantes

    Hi Scotsman glad your'e here mate,

    When you read the comments posted on this forum you might begin to,even if it's vague, have a feeling that maybe the JW's are wrong.It will start with a little realisation here and there.A little voice from your intelligent enquiring mind will make you question the watchtower doctrines. Please follow it up like a detective would, dig deep, exhume the body of past watchtower beliefs if you have to, but if you ignore it now you will live in ignorance probably for years .The reason your leaders do not want you to communicate with peple who have experienced the watchtower model and have found it flawed is the fact that accurute understanding can only come from a different perspective. Have you ever seen the revolving mask.When you look at it at a glance the hollow side looks full and the full side looks empty.It's only until you look close enough that you realise the true perspective.Have you never been in a situation when you have thought everyone is out of step except youself and then it's suddenly dawned that you are the one that is wrong.?

    Watchtower no part of the world? -- The finances are invested in the world's stock exchanges.

    Involvment with war?-- Read the history of Gods people in the Hebrew scriptures.

    A people more pure? --Come on now get real.

    Babylonian teaching?--Jehovah is a God ,Jesus is a GOD ,hello ,the worship and believe in more than one deity.

    1975? -- I was there. I heard it just as much as I watched and listened on the day that Kennedy was shot. It was as if it was yesterday.The answer to the 75 belief was, well we don't know when Eve was created. Hello! ever been had.

    Generation? -- Most discussed subject on the door to door work--Do I feel stupid now? You bet your sweet bippy I do.Still most people who I talked to are now long gone.

    Millions now living will never die ---See above.

    The United Nations ?---- See Babylon The GREAT Has Fallen I did every tuesday evening in the early sixty's and most of the elderly sisters hadn't got a clue what it was all about and said "well I just go along with it."

    "We are offering these two magazines on a subscription basis just to cover the printing cost" --Well that is what I was told to say.

    "Paradise Lost To Paradise Regained ,Would you like a copy at cost?" -- "Yes thank you I was looking for something for my children for christmas." Oh! the brothers at the hall will be pleased at how well I'm doing.

    The protection of the Society.------- Say no more.

    Thanks for reading Scotsman.Join us on the road.

    Edmond Dantes.

  • AlphaOmega
    AlphaOmega
    I have said this before on this forum - the vast majority of your qoutes are from 60, 70 years ago and even older than that on a few cases. Those who question the organisation tend to fall into 2 categories - had a bad experience or get hung up on 80 year old articles.

    A Good point, BUT the thing to remember is that Jesus is supposed to have sifted through all the teachings in all the chuches in 1919 and selected the Watchtower as the one teaching the truth.

    Have a look on here, on the internet, or even in your Kingdom Hall library (if they stil have the first editions and unaltered books) and see just what teachings Jesus approved in 1919 !

    That is a good reason to go back to the archives. If they were wrong about 1914, 1915 and 1919, 1925 and all the other dates, what makes you think that they are teaching the unchanging truth now.

    The truth doesn't change...

    The light might get brighter, but can the truth get true-er ? The truth simply "is". It is as unchanging as God.

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