NAME JUST ONE thing....ONE THING...revealed by God....

by Terry 284 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

  • Terry
    Terry
    I am saying that superstitious and ignorant primitives said things happened that could only have happened (if they did happen) through extraordinarily complex scientific means.

    Two things: complexity and ignorance.

    Things happen all the time. Whether or not they are complex is actually irrelevant to the fact they occur. Complexity requires a point of view outside and an opinion.

    So called primitive man could predict an eclipse. They did not understand what caused the eclipse. They even guessed wrong (the sun being swallowed, etc.).

    What they understood is irrelevant to prediction and irrelevant to the event predicted.

    Knowledge and ignorance are always outside of events; external and non-causal.

    In 585 B.C.E. Thales predicted an eclipse. Two armies were about to engage in war on a battlefield. When the eclipse happened they gave up on the idea of battle. Did Thales prediction cause a battle to be avoided?

    Irrelevant!

    A stopped watch could be said to "accurately" mark what time it is twice a day. But, this is a function of anything but accuracy.

    Sci-Fi author Jules Verne wrote From the Earth to theMoon.

    Was he informed by a higher power (God/Devil) about events which would occur much after his death?

    Or, is imagination and actual happening often a co-incidence and entirely independant of knowledge?

  • fedorE
    fedorE

    Since I have great difficulty accepting this book, Im playing devils advocate.The R&F JW will point to circumcision as positve proof of divine revealing.

    From the INSIGHT book page 471 on circumcision: "..if the 8th day fell on Sabath it had to be performed anyways...Jehovah did not explain nor was it necessary that he do so. HIs ways are always right....However in recent years man has learned the physical reasons why the 8th day was a good time to circumcise. Normal amoutns of blood clotting ..vitamin K not in blood til 5th day,... another clotting factor ..is present ..on 3rd day But on the 8th day is higher than at any other time in the childs life SO FOLLOWING JEHOVAHS INSTRUCTIONS WOULD HELP TO AVOID DANGER OF HEMORRAHAGE."

    I recall as a JW i would read this and think wow! It really is Gods word.

    (My own opinion is that he sure had us go through some F***ing pain for nothing just to make up for the fact that he couldnt have created that human body part without the need for hygene in a ritual manner.)

  • Terry
    Terry
    Since I have great difficulty accepting this book, Im playing devils advocate.The R&F JW will point to circumcision as positve proof of divine revealing.

    DOES the fact that circumcision PREDATES Judaism reflect poorly on this proof in your opinion?

    wikipedia: CIRCUMCISION
    Circumcision predates recorded human history, with depictions in stone-agecave drawings and Ancient Egyptiantombs. [4] Theories include that circumcision is a form of ritual sacrifice or offering, a health precaution, a sign of submission to a deity, a rite of passage to adulthood, a mark of defeat or slavery, or an attempt to alter esthetics or sexuality. [5]

    History of Circumcision

    This index page links to material relating to the origin and history of male circumcision. Material is indexed in chronological order of publication.

    Introduction

    The practice of male genital mutilation is far older than recorded history. Certainly, it is far older than the Biblical account of Abraham (Genesis 17). It seems to have originated in eastern Africa long before this time. 6

    Many theories have been advanced to explain the origin of genital mutilation. One theory postulates that circumcision began as a way of "purifying" individuals and society by reducing sexuality and sexual pleasure. Human sexuality was seen as dirty or impure in some societies; hence cutting off the pleasure-producing parts was the obvious way to "purify" someone.

    It is now known that the male foreskin, or prepuce, is the principal location of erogenous sensation in the human male (see Anatomy.) Removal of the prepuce substantially reduces erogenous sensation. 12,16 Therefore (in the appropriate cultural context), circumcision is revealed as a sacrifice of "sinful" human enjoyment (in this earthly life), for the sake of holiness in the afterlife. 12

    The Jews adopted circumcision as a religious ritual 8,10,15,18 and preserved this prehistoric practice into modern times. 10,16,18 The circumcision of Abraham removed only the very tip that extended beyond the glans penis. 8,17,22,28 Moses and his sons were not circumcised. (Exodus 4:25) Although Moses apparently prohibited circumcision during the 40 years in the wilderness, 15,18 (Joshua 5:5) Joshua reinstituted circumcision at Gilgal after the death of Moses. 15,18 (Joshua 5:2-10) It is interesting to note that after the Israelites were circumcised, they immediately became soldiers in Joshua's army for the conquest of Palestine. (Joshua 6:1-3)

    In contrast to the Jews, the Greeks and the Romans placed a high value on the prepuce. 31 The Romans passed several laws to protect the prepuce by prohibiting circumcision. 31

    Much later in the Hellenic period, about 140 C.E., the circumcision procedure was modified to make it impossible for a Jew to appear to be an uncircumcised Greek. 8,18,25 A radical new procedure called peri'ah was introduced by the priests and rabbis. In this procedure the foreskin was stripped away from the glans, with which it is fused in the infant (See Normal.) In a painful procedure known today as a synechotomy, more foreskin was removed than before and the injury was correspondingly greater. With the introduction of peri'ah, the glans could not easily be recovered, and so no Jewish male would easily be able to appear as an uncircumcised Greek. 8,18,25

    It may have been at this time that the Pondus Judaeus (also known as Judaeum Pondum), a bronze weight worn by Jews on the residual foreskin to stretch it back into a foreskin, 8,18,23 gained popularity amongst Jewish males. This lessened the ugly appearance of the bare exposed circumcised penis. 18 This restorative procedure was known by the Greek word epispasm, 8 or "rolling inward."

    The third stage of ritual circumcision, the Messisa or Metzitzah, was not introduced until the Talmudic period (500-625 C.E). 8,17,23 In Metzitzah, the mohel (ritual circumciser) sucks blood from the penis of the circumcised infant with his mouth. 31 This procedure has been responsible for the death of many Jewish babies due to infection. 13 In modern times, a glass tube is sometimes used instead.

    The Reform movement within Judaism considered circumcision to be a cruel practice. 17 The Reform movement at Frankfort declared in 1843 that circumcision was not necessary. 17,21

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Jeffro,

    In English, we use the word "if" to create a conditional clause. In the logical progression of my post, the use of the parenthetical clause "(if they did happen)" prevents conclusion that I am making any statement to the effect that any of the alleged claims are true and accurate.

    I am addressing how they could have happened in such a way that the explanations of superstitious and ignorant primitive eyewitnesses are perfectly reasonable, given what they would have seen/experienced if these things did happen.

    Cinderella was a fable, written as such intentionally, not intended for actual acceptance and belief.

    Terry,

    Jules Verne was a writer of science fiction did not write from the perspective of alleging a firsthand claim of something he personally observed or from a secondhand perspective of someone who heard the reports from those who claimed to be eyewitnesses.

    Eyewitness testimony is horribly unreliable, but rarely occurs from nothing.

    Either way, nothing detracts from the fact that the possiblity of conception without sexual union arises exclusively from stories involving deity. I didn't say you had to believe it, anymore than you have to believe there are dinosaurs still living in the center of the earth.

    Respectfully,
    AuldSoul

  • Terry
    Terry
    I didn't say you had to believe it, anymore than you have to believe there are dinosaurs still living in the center of the earth.

    I guess I've learned something today! I had no idea there ever WERE dinosaurs living in the center of the earth!

    Thanks, Auld Soul. You are a repository of great wisdom and full of pithy sentience.

  • Terry
    Terry
    From the INSIGHT book page 471 on circumcision: "..if the 8th day fell on Sabath it had to be performed anyways...Jehovah did not explain nor was it necessary that he do so. HIs ways are always right....However in recent years man has learned the physical reasons why the 8th day was a good time to circumcise. Normal amoutns of blood clotting ..vitamin K not in blood til 5th day,... another clotting factor ..is present ..on 3rd day But on the 8th day is higher than at any other time in the childs life SO FOLLOWING JEHOVAHS INSTRUCTIONS WOULD HELP TO AVOID DANGER OF HEMORRAHAGE."

    Ask yourself this question: How many boys were butchered before the 8th day until the circumcision was delayed by trial and error to the ideal?

    When a workable (trial and error) optimum day was determined the law was "fixed".

    How is that divine?

    You see, by Occam's Razor their is no need to assert Divine mind or superior knowledge to this barbaric custom.

  • hibiscusfire
    hibiscusfire

    TERRY I WAS TALKING ABOUT THE FOLLOWING. Would you please address it. Thank you.

    hibie

    Good gravy woman do you have no shame? There is a time to shut the f*ck up and about one post ago was it.

    Caedes

    Caedes, thank you. God bless you too.

    Terry, this is what you people really have within you. Thank you. I guess this is your idea of living and treating others with respect. GOD is love but this is hate you all have. Thanks for letting others know again that athiests are haters. I guess you can reply to everyone else but not address this type of behaviour from your "followers".

    hibiscusfire

  • hibiscusfire
    hibiscusfire

    The Martian:

    Stop and think of how corrupt the world would be now if the Bible never existed, if Christ never taught!

    True. Jesus rules! He is the King!

    Hibiscusfire

  • lalliv01
    lalliv01

    Terry,

    Sorry about the confusing post. I'm new here so I don't know how to cut and paste, yet. I'll learn.

    about the flood of Noah's day: I didn't mention said flood thinking that you would just dismiss it as myth

    and not worthy of serious consideration. Now, it's my understanding that the pre-noachian-flood earth was

    a flatter, smoother earth than the one we now inhabit. Our post-noachian-flood earth has much deeper valley's

    and much higher mountains. As such, I'm given to understand that while at one time in earth's existence it was

    possible to inundate the entire planet with the available water in it's environs, because of it's changed topography,

    it is not now a possability. Hence, someone in the distant past could disclose that the earth would never suffer

    "another" world-devestating deluge as had been experienced by Noah. I believe that only God could have known

    about the changes that had occurred to the planet and the available water now existing so as to make another

    world wide flood very improbable, if not impossible.

    As a side note: I am a faded JW elder, am never going to subject myself to it again but, as you said, if there were

    a God, it would be so comforting. I agree, so I still carry my "blanky" around with me. nough for now.

  • AuldSoul
    AuldSoul

    Sure thing, Terry. Of course dinos lived in the center of the earth, haven't you read your Burroughs? I encourage you not to believe Burroughs, by the way. He also wrote fiction. But if you choose to believe Burroughs, dinos once lived in the center of the earth. Since the reference was a literary one and since you mentioned Verne who wrote the work that inspired Burrough's Pellucidar, I thought you might know it.

    How kind (and typical) of you to respond to the merest periphery of the post and miss out on responding to its point.

    AuldSoul

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