"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character... (page 8)

snowbird

Many of us do not believe the Bible because we remember what it contains Snowbird, not because we are ignorant of its contents.
HS

Conversely, many of us do believe the Bible despite what it contains.

Sylvia

startingover

I continue to find it hard to believe that anyone of right mind can justify the actions of the god of the OT.

That being said, is there any proof that any of it ever happened, other than using the bible as proof? I think it's nothing but Hebrew mythology.

LtCmd.Lore

I find the most interesting thing about this topic is that the theists are perfectly prepared to retreat to a position of 'who are YOU to judge god'

Me too, especially since it's not a defence at all. It's basically an admission that his actions are indefensible, but you should ignore them anyway.

The question indicates that it's somehow MY fault, that I'm just too proud to serve god. And that I should be less arrogant, and more submissive and obedient. I should submit to gods logic and morality, even though I don't understand it, even though I CANNOT understand it.

But the real issue is, what if it's not gods actions at all? That's the thing about trusting god, you're actually not trusting god at all, you're trusting men. The men who wrote the scriptures, the men who translate them, the prophets, the apostles and the preachers. THEY are the ones who are saying: "This is what god says, trust god. God says so."

How do I know it's actually god speaking, or his actions? I only have mens word for it.

So when the theist says: "Who are you to judge God?" he's actually saying: "Who are you to judge me?"

"Submit to my interpretation, and my opinion about god.God commands you too."

So if you want to say: "Who are you to judge god?" I do not need justification to cast my judgements. It's this god that you speak of, your god is demanding that I obey it, so it's his responsiblity to explain himself. If he doesn't, then I am under no obligation to trust ~~him~~ you.

alt

Lore - What.Would.Satan.Do?

snowbird

That being said, is there any proof that any of it ever happened, other than using the bible as proof? I think it's nothing but Hebrew mythology

StartingOver, you may want to check out the Amarna Letters or "Strong Is He Who Has Come Down."

Sylvia

startingover

Snowbird,

I checked into the Amarna letters, and from what I read they could prove the existance of groups mentioned in the bible. But I see nothing about the acts attributed to these groups in the bible mentioned. I am not disputing whether they existed, but whether what the bible says they did actually took place.

I can't find any reference to the other thing you mentioned. Is that a book?

snowbird

I can't find any reference to the other thing you mentioned. Is that a book?

No, it's a translation from one of the letters. You can find info about it here:

http://www.keyway.ca/htm2005/20050117.htm

Sylvia

R.Crusoe

Ly Cmdr Lore Well said!!

Snowbird - what is it about men thousands of years ago which makes their writings any more divine than men of today?? Oops WT 1975!!

What is it about Moses that makes his writings more plausible than the Egyptians??? Just different empires maybe like today wouldn't you say????

What fool would take todays writings as more 100% more important than those in 2000 years from now with any advancements in science??

cognizant dissident

I found this thread somewhat disheartening. I understand Snowbird's reasoning about the Jehovah of the old testament and his "righteous" judgements, including the belief that the Caananites were evil and got what they deserved. All of us who used to be JW's, didn't we share this same belief, at one time? So, now that we have moved on and found a better way, shall those who still believe, sicken and repulse us? Let's attack the belief, not the believer, otherwise we have not moved on so much as we think we have.

I found these quotes from Martin Luther King that were beautifully worded and put it all into perspective. The Cananites may truly have been evil, but is wiping them out by genocide a lesser evil? Those of you still believing may change your mind when you read Dr. King. He is adamant that we all have a moral obligation not to condone evil, but to fight evil wherever we find it, but not through violence.

To our most bitter opponents we say: "We shall match your capacity to
inflict suffering by our capacity to endure suffering. We shall meet
your physical force with soul force. Do to us what you will, and we
shall continue to love you. We cannot in all good conscience obey
your unjust laws because noncooperation with evil is as much a moral
obligation as is cooperation with good. Throw us in jail and we shall
still love you. Bomb our homes and threaten our children, and we
shall still love you. Send your hooded perpetrators of violence into
our community at the midnight hour and beat us and leave us half
dead, and we shall still love you. But be ye assured that we will
wear you down by our capacity to suffer. One day we shall win freedom
but not only for ourselves. We shall so appeal to your heart and
conscience that we shall win you in the process and our victory will
be a double victory."
- Dr. Luther King, Jr.

We are tied together in the single garment of destiny, caught in an inescapable network of mutuality. And whatever affects one directly affects all. For some strange reason I can never be what I ought to be until you are what you ought to be. And you can never be what you ought to be until I am what I ought to be.
- Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

think I have discovered the highest good. It is love. Love is the most durable power in the world.
- Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

Cog

quietlyleaving

Paul, I believe the same as you, that YHWH, the God of the OT, is none other than Jesus Christ. That is what you meant, isn't it? Just thinking about it fills me with awe! The warring, conquering, in-your-face Deity becoming even lower than His angels!

what an interesting perspecitve snowbird.

snowbird

Let me once again attempt to make it clear that I no longer wholeheartedly subscribe to the WT's teachings. When I researched and found that many of its tenets lack biblical support, I withdrew from them. Their replacement theology and their insistence on mass extermination for those who refuse to convert to the JW's are the most untenable, imo.

Let me also reiterate that I've found nothing in the Bible that would cause me to doubt or discredit God. Nothing. Others are free to form their own opinions, draw their own conclusions, and state unequivocally how they feel about the matter. I, too, have that freedom and thanks to this board, I will use it to the full.

Cog mentioned Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. While I admire the man and his untiring efforts at raising the consciousness of America - and other nations as well - I do not and did not support his position on non-violence. If someone hits me, I'm going to hit back. If someone spits on me, I'm going to spit back. As a child, even though I was called the runt of the litter, I always stood up to bullies. Suffice it to say that Malcolm X, not Dr. King, was my hero.

Therefore, in keeping with my intense dislike of bullies, I'm calling FunkyDerek out for the arrogant, crass bastard that he really is. All of us were manipulated and deceived by the WTS, and understandably, some are quite embittered . That, however, is no excuse for rude, abusive behavior on anyone's part.

I am hereby putting all on notice that I'm not going to stand for it.

With no regrets,

Sylvia

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character...

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