Mr.Flipper..I`ve followed this thread..I`ve also taken care of abused children.....Like it or not..HS and Big Tex are right.......If you really want to help these people,you will need a better education on what your dealing with...................
...OUTLAW
How Can We Expose Child Abusers - Who Got Away with it as Witnesses ?
by flipper 115 Replies latest watchtower child-abuse
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OUTLAW
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cognizant dissident
"Ego" takes many forms. Sometimes one of "expert", sometimes one of "helper", it sometimes even takes the role of "victim".
Something to think about.
Cog
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SixofNine
"COGNIZANT DISSENDENT- I'm glad you were not offended by the remark. I was. I thought it was a very thoughtless term to use by him. Whatever. Yes- I understand what you are saying that those who have been abused need to describe in graphic terms to therapists, ie, professionals in private what happened to them ; but I don't think it was necessary for Hillary to use that graphic language on a public forum site, as it may have offended some here. Hillary is no expert either , just as much as I am not as well."
"The smell of infant sex" is not particularly graphic language, you unpleasant douche. "Graphic language" would be language that describes or paints a verbal picture of an action. As used by Hillary, the term (apparently one used by at least some professionals) is simply an attempt to convey the relentless, seemingly hardwired, "animal-on-the-hunt" nature of a certain type of pedophile.
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Uzzah
<biting my tongue> I promised Angharad I'd behave ... must ... say ... something ...
My credentials are bigger than yours. So there! <stomping foot> Sorry just had to post at the same level as some.
If something would actually be gained by my posting my credentials for speaking with a certain authority on this topic I would. But I really don't believe that is really the point.
I was quoted today by an online Homeland Security Magazine as saying, "Emergencies + Egos + Agendas = Catastrophes."
Although the above quote is not related to the abuse issue, I believe it somewhat enforces Cog's point.
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hillary_step
Flipper,
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/150938/1.ashx
quote:
So, what are your thoughts ? Does debating have to be abusive to be effective ? What is your take on this ? Are there ways we can effectively get our points across and still leave the dignity of our fellow posters intact ? What ideas do you have in posting viewpoints without causing an all out battle or being abusive - and yet still being assertive enough to get your points across in a dignified, respectful manner ? As always I look forward to all your thoughts ! Peace out, Mr. & Mrs. Flipper
It is always an amusing sight when a person becomes a victim of their own standards.
YOU are the one that lives in a deluded world . You and Uzzah have no more experience in this subject than I do, yet you have the audacity to come on this thread and claim that you are all knowing on this subject. You are a pontificating windbag who thinks he is a lot smarter than everybody else, and your insecurity shows up that you have to verbally take differences with most everybody you come across on threads. You don't value anyone's opinion but your own , you are on a smear campaign towards anybody on this board trying to show support towards people who need it. I advise you in the future not to respond to any of my threads- as you will get no more responses from me to satisfy your mountainous Mt. Everest ego which you keep ignorantly putting out through your high and mighty, allegedly intelligent words. I see right through you. You are a classic BS artist who wants to manipulate people on this board. I'm done responding to you. Peace out, Mr.Flipper
Peace out.
HS
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hillary_step
Six,
"The smell of infant sex" is not particularly graphic language, you unpleasant douche. "Graphic language" would be language that describes or paints a verbal picture of an action. As used by Hillary, the term (apparently one used by at least some professionals) is simply an attempt to convey the relentless, seemingly hardwired, "animal-on-the-hunt" nature of a certain type of pedophile.
...and read in context that is EXACTLY the picture that was being painted.
HS
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Big Tex
If you are a person who deals better with women, and you end up with a male who just being in the situation alone makes you feel stifled, then perhaps you should look for someone you feel more comfortable with. Someone you can give your full attention to and not be distracted by the outside noise that is coming in due to the situation you are in with whom you are working with.
Isn't that the truth. I went through 13 quacks/therapists before I found a gem.
I think therapy is like dating, sometimes you land a weirdo and sometimes there's just not the connection. Nothing wrong, it's just not there.
I found, in my case, that I worked better with female therapists than male. Some of it was testosterone (no we're going THIS way) and some of it was I felt safer around women than men. So it was easier to talk about some very unmanly memories with someone who was nuturing rather than had their own agenda.
Another point is that sometimes you have to do it in doses. For instance when I first learned that I had some of the things I do going on in my head, it was enough to just have a name for what ailed me. It helped so much. I left with a book the person gave me and thought to myself, "I have the answers now!" Wrong. Not even a tip of the iceberg. I did however get what I needed "at that time" and getting that small bit of info was enough to make HUGE changes.
Decki you made me laugh with this. I've always thought of it like plateaus, you know going from one plateau to the next. You get the big high of new discovery and then you flatten out. But yeah I've thought many times that I was finally at The End. Only to find out -- oh hell no I'm not anywhere near where I want to be. Sometimes I feel like Sisyphus with the sword of Damocles hanging over my head.
I've been spending time, whilst away from this board, on a male survivors board. Whoa. Triggers all over the place on several levels, and I felt like it was 1988 all over again and I'm some kid who's just scratching the surface. And that's an excellent support board with dozens of posters that blow me away with their knowledge and experience. But you know what I came to realize is this is a VERY VERY tough subject without easy answers. It's sort of the gift that keeps on giving.
I tried really hard to focus and not wander
You did great. Great post.
However, in my own experience, and that of friends with whom I am intimately acquainted with their own stories of abuse, what is an essential part of their healing is that they can tell the horribly graphic details of their own abuse to someone and not have them turn away in disgust. That they can use the vilest language available to describe what was done to them and still trust that, in the eyes of those that care about them, this does not affect their view of who they are as a person, their value and worth. What was done says nothing about the victim and everything about the perpetrator.
I'm sorry I haven't gotten the choice to know you better CD. You joined whilst I was full of angst and milling about offline. You are full of pearls of wisdom. Your posts are true.
I wanted an "outsiders" opinion on it, seeing how emotional, and pissed off I was at the time I recieved it.
It's a helluva thing to talk to the offender about what they did to you. The last time I spoke with my father was just such a thing. 1992, and the elders in his congregation "encouraged" him to meet with me. Nina takes short hand and she wrote down every word. Suffice to say it did not go well, although actually I got what I wanted from this meeting.
I got two very valuable pieces of information. One was my father never once denied anything I accused him of (naturally the two elders ignored that fine point), but even more important was this was my final test on Jehovah's Witnesses. I wanted to see with my own eyes whether all the nonsense the Watchtower spewed out about how this a "spiritual paradise" full of "spirit anointed" servants who channeld Jehovah himself, I wanted to see if that was true. I asked him very specific questions that I knew would anger him, and it did even to the point when he once stood up red-faced and angry and walked behind me to answer one of my questions. (From a Jungian viewpoint that particular behavior was very interesting; from a Freudian it was downright repulsive). I've still got the notes; maybe I'll post them sometime.
Anyway, I got my second answer. Big time. With bright, flashing neon, Las Vegas-sized lights -- everything the Watchtower said was a lie.
Anyway I wanted to mention this as sort of the flip side to my earlier post. I did have a second confrontation but 4 years later when I was much more stable, and my goals were very limited. It was worth it to me, as a validation of my sense of reality, to put myself through the elder grinder one last time.
I wanted to offer this to CBB as a possibility. Jehovah's Witnesses will never, ever respond or allow one of their members to respond, in a kind, loving, nuturing way to abuse victims. As I've posted before, if you are aware of that, then more power to you. But if you do go to that dysfunctional place, do so only if you have a very specific goal in mind that requires those people to do nothing whatsoever to help you, assist you, care for you, care about you or in any way treat you as if you were nothing more than scum.
And if you do go there, take someone with you.
YOU are the one that lives in a deluded world . You and Uzzah have no more experience in this subject than I do, yet you have the audacity to come on this thread and claim that you are all knowing on this subject. You are a pontificating windbag who thinks he is a lot smarter than everybody else, and your insecurity shows up that you have to verbally take differences with most everybody you come across on threads. You don't value anyone's opinion but your own , you are on a smear campaign towards anybody on this board trying to show support towards people who need it. I advise you in the future not to respond to any of my threads- as you will get no more responses from me to satisfy your mountainous Mt. Everest ego which you keep ignorantly putting out through your high and mighty, allegedly intelligent words. I see right through you. You are a classic BS artist who wants to manipulate people on this board. I'm done responding to you. Peace out, Mr.Flipper
Flipper your response is somewhat disappointing. You started this thread wanting feedback. One thing you'll get on this board, if you ask for it, is a response. I'm sorry it's not the response you wanted, but people are being honest and keeping it real doing so.
One thing that can be said about hillary_step is -- he is not a bullshit artist. Like him, dislike him, agree or disagree but what you see is exactly what you get. Or I guess more accurately is, what you read is what is really there.
You've got to understand that child abuse is a multi-layered experience involving the entire spectrum of human emotion. Factor in a high control cult which invokes a wrathful, judgmental god and the picture is even more muddied and complex. I wish it were as easy as running to the platform and announcing "the truth" about child abuse. But human beings are much more complex than that, we have denial in place, we have revulsion at the idea of raping a child (your own feelings regarding just a tiny bit of description is a great example). I could go on, but I won't.
I appreciate the idea behind this thread. I think there have been some really positive things said here for anyone lurking who is dealing with these issues. I know from Lambsroar that there are thousands of people googling that never post but what is said on a board does have an impact.
Chris
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Finally-Free
Flipper:
You and Uzzah have no more experience in this subject than I do, yet you have the audacity to come on this thread and claim that you are all knowing on this subject.
I don't know HS, but I first met Uzzah more than 20 years ago as a JW. He was my BS conductor for a while. His experience in this area is extensive, and his work had a direct relationship with my decision to leave the cult over the child abuse issue.
W
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flipper
Wow ! Haven't received this much love since I was a witness ! LOL! Good night now ! Peace out, Mr. Flipper
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cognizant dissident
The best way of 'supporting' child abuse victims is to grant them a measure of self-worth and dignity by offering LONG TERM SUPPORT, emotionally, physically and yes, even financially
I really want to highlight this statement because I think it so true and valuable. It is very easy to open up a can of worms but very difficult to contain them once it is opened. The abuse survivors I have known have had trouble holding down a job during the worst of it due to the emotional rollercoaster and their own self-destructive coping mechanisms. (I include myself in this). They often need years of intensive support on all levels. It can be exhausting for everyone.
To find the courage to open up and tell your story is difficult enough. To be left hanging out to dry when everyone else goes back to their day jobs and on with their lives can be emotionally devastating and feel like abandonment all over again. I would say, if you are not in it for the long haul, then it is better not to be in at all. That's why professional help is being so strongly encouraged. At least those people have demonstrated that this is their life's work and have put the effort into proper training.
I actually had a positive, kind response from the elders when they came to visit me and I told them what I was dealing with. It helped that they were personal friends of mine and that the person who abused me was not a JW, therefore, there was no responsibility on them to do anything but be supportive. However, I had multiple problems that were years in the making and were going to take years in the fixing, and it was not really helpful in any meaningful way to receive a couple of well intentioned shepherding calls and a two page overview on child abuse in one of the Awake magazines.
What Hillary said in an earlier post about how the elder went to support "Sister Sucide Attempt" and then it was on to who was going to be assigned to close the windows in the KH, is about the best one can expect from support at the KH. If you are not re-victimized by the elders then consider yourself lucky, you have received the best you are going to get out of that avenue of support.
I actually had a well-meaning professional counselor who was counseling my son for some unrelated issues, apologize profusely to me for asking me questions about my past one day when we were alone. I was already overwhelmed emotionally with my son's problems and was not ready or able to cope at the time with "the can of worms" she opened up. It "triggered" me into a nervous breakdown and I couldn't even go to work. She realized this and quickly put a professional support system into place for me as she was not able to offer it herself being a children's counselor. It was also free, which was a damn good thing because I had no money to pay a professional psychologist.
I only offer this experience to illustrate the importance of what Hillary has stated above.