Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe? (page 20)

isaacaustin

Isaacaustin you say this but can you really then say critical thinking means you can justify saying it's ok to justify worshiping jesus on a day that has no connection with him other than been picked out of a hat? why is my logic faulty and yours right in this?

Ok why don't we just pick a day in september and change jesus's birthday to it? keep Yuletide in december 25th as just another holiday with it's pagan rituals but have jesus's birthday on another day nearer to his birth? it was men that changed it before we can change it again now, why not?

This is another red herring you are throwing to mask the issue. Why not pick Sept has no bearing on whether Christmas is wrong. You have not adressed the issues I raised that directly answered the question of whether Chrismas is ok for Christians. And how are you so sure Sept is closer to correct? No one can know this. You will say it could not have been Dec because it was too cold to have the sheep outside with the shepherds. the truth is that the sheep always had to be outside to be ready for sacrifice.

The 'we give gifts all yr around" also holds no water...and again is unrelated to the question Most parents do. So the children are deprived on the holidays because they receive nothing on that day while those outside the org receive on that day in addition to all year round....all because of organizational mandates.

reniaa

hi Onthewayout, may I start by apologising i've allowed this thread to become seriously off it's original topic and I sometimes wish the moderaters on here could do what i've found on other forums, that is if a part of a topic takes on a life of it's own they'll split it off under another heading. I'm going to have to be strict with posters on future threads and say i'll only answer on topic questions and viewpoints.

Now on what you said

I admit where I use a certain viewpoint, yet I acknowledge that mine is not the only viewpoint that
might be valid. Thanks for acknowledging that your words may have been too attacking.
I like the general thread topic and understand your reasons for asking it.
As far as Jesus addressing sex before marriage, I personally believe that the philosophical answers
from Jesus (as I don't accept the Bible as the Word anymore) were indicating that it is impossible to
abstain from fornication in the heart. Beyond adultery, I think he was trying to indicate how the Jews
could best TRY to live up to God's standards and apply them personally in life. I don't think Jesus was
trying to set a new set of rules. Paul, on the other hand, probably was setting new rules. So I tend to
side with you that the Bible indicates that sex before marriage is wrong.
Having said all that, others will disagree with the intent of Jesus' words and how the Jews might have
understood them. They might argue that the Jews misunderstood Jesus' words. My point is that
all people need to decide how to apply the Bible, if at all, in their lives. If some want to apply Jesus'
words and give a different weight to Paul's words in the NT, they can justify homosexuality or premarital
sex. The Bible indicates that we all fall short of the ideal, so do the best we can

I do agree with most of what you say, I certainly agree that others may disagree with the intent and say jews misunderstood but I would argue that jesus brought up as a jew would know how his words would be taken when talking to other jews, he wasn't afraid of condemning openly what he considered wrong and made it clear.

Unlike you I still accept the bible and have hope but I can understand were you are coming from I've nearly gone there a number of times especially when you can see if someone wants to believe something enough they will use any argument they can lol thats true of JW's and any other believer of any faith or non-faith. you see it mainly when they respond to your post only highlighted the bits they can argue with and ignore what they wish to avoid tackling but we all do that.

Reniaa

OUTLAW

Reniaa..I have repeatedly asked you to answer the questions on my first post?..10 pages later,Nothing!..Nothing but Babble........Should we change you name from Reniaa to "Babble-On the Great"?..LOL!!......A Thesaurus has a legitimate place in a debate..It is not a dictionary,do you understand the difference between the two?.....Your non answers to everyone here clearly shows,that "Babble-On the Great" has Fallen..LOL!!..........I will ask you once again..Please answer my questions to you in my first post..No more red Herrings..No more Straw Men..Just answer the Frigg`n Questions already!!!..LOL!!......................... Laughing Mutley ...OUTLAW

isaacaustin

can you really then say critical thinking means you can justify saying it's ok to justify worshiping jesus on a day that has no connection with him other than been picked out of a hat? why is my logic faulty and yours right in this? Ok why don't we just pick a day in september and change jesus's birthday to it? keep Yuletide in december 25th as just another holiday with it's pagan rituals but have jesus's birthday on another day nearer to his birth? it was men that changed it before we can change it again now, why not? OR alternatively could any of you imagine doing christmas as a holiday but not doing any of the rituals normally associated with it? could people do that? really make a conscious decision to not to buy a tree or put up lights, holly etc how would it feel would you enjoy it less?

Again Reniaa, what did Paul say regarding a day one chooses to use to bring honor to the Lord? Pls review Romans ch 14. I feel like myself and many others have repeated this over and over. And yes one can observe Christmas how they like- with or without trees but again, that is not the issue here. But let's say a JW decided to celebrate Jesus birth on 9/25? They would be dfed just as quickly as a 12/25 worshipper.

ex-nj-jw

That being said I am often accused of spoiling my children because I find the concept of buying presents all year round quite hard for non-JWs to take on board, there is definitely a 'Presents are only for christmas or birthdays' so i find my non-JW family get me no presents at all but ones that used to be JW's or still are do make an effort to buy presents outside of the allowed set events for them. One thing you do noticei s that as you say its not just the children that need set markers to do things by but adults too.

You are the one making broad statements and not respecting what others say or do. In your mind through the WT's rosey glasses this is how everyone except JW's live. It simply is not true. Do you really think that when non-jw parents go to Walmart and their kids ask for a toy they so no wait for your birthday? or wait for Chirstmas? That is totally untrue and somehthing that JW's tell their kids to try and make them feel better.

If you buy things for your kids all year long, ok so what you are doing the same thing most parents do. Nothing special about that, but in your mind it's set you apart from the non-jws because they don't. Your non-Jw family probably don't buy you presents because they think you wouldn't accept it, being no part of the world and all.

nj

lovelylil

Reniaa is definately an active dub, probably counting her time trying to witless to us.

Problem with your witlessing reniaa is we are all now fully deprogrammed, while you are still a watchtower robot and with a few screws loose to boot.

Anyway, while I refuse to engage in conversation with reniaa anylonger, I am sitting here with a nice hot cup of "Joe" having a few laughs reading the responses.

So carry on now............................hee,hee,hee Lilly

isaacaustin

I am sure that our 'persecution' of Reniaa is further proof that she has the 'truth'

reniaa

i'm sorry isaacaustin I guess I wasn't really clear on the point I was trying to make which was that the rituals of these forgotten pagan festivals have a great a hold on us. And that people couldn't conceive of not doing them or changing the date they observe jesus's birthday on, people find change hard.

I don't want to keep banging on about christmas it's taken what I really wanted to discuss right off topic and considering the replies i've had it's an old well discussed topic.

I appologise to those that feel I have not answered or addressed their questions enough but I really want to keep this thread more on topic now and only address people staying within the topic of "If it's Just the Jw's they've left and not the God of the bible?" although i think we may have pretty muched covered it .

Reniaa

reniaa

I am sure that our 'persecution' of Reniaa is further proof that she has the 'truth'

hehe nope isaacaustin just bad debating techniques and unworthy of what can be a good discussion, It also usually marks the end of a topic when the meat of the debate is all behind us.

Reniaa

wobble

Thanks Reniaa, and all who have contributed to a lively discussion, I can feel the steam coming off some of you! Great stuff!

I appreciate seeing how the witness point of view and "reasoning" methods can be exposed for what they are,as I think I have some debates in the near future , not on this topic,but two seperate active Dubs are supposed to be returning to answer my "concerns," I shall be better equipped to help them Reason on The Scriptures because of what I have observed on this thread.

Many thanks to all,

Love

Wobble

Is it the JW's or the God of the bible you no longer believe?

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